UWP to GDP

[Reynard]

"Pocket Empires RU's into standard Credits"

From Pocket Empires, an RU is 5,000MCr. A Gigacredit.

T5 make creating a planet's RU's fairly simple compared to its predecessor inT4's PE.

Got a chance to review TCS and I do like their very simple version for planetary income and military expenditure.

 

[Pyromancer]

Government type: Peace %/War %
0: .4/1.5
1: .8/1.4
2: 1/1.5
3: .9/1.2
4: .85/1.45
5: .95/1.4
8: 1.1/1.2
9: 1.15/1.2
A: 1.2/1.5
B: 1.1/1.2
C: 1.2/1.5
D: 0.75/1.5

This table is from TCS and is not a percentage, but a just a relative number.

I know.
But it works well enough as the percentage of GDP spend on the fleet.

Rationale: NATO advises its members to spend 2% of the GDP on the military. If you subtract general overhead, corruption, and the ground based military, something around 1% of the GDP for the space fleet sounds reasonable.

Of course, you can also first calculate a "base fleet budget" number and modify it afterwards by government type.

And perhaps I should increase the wartime numbers a bit.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In the real world military spending seems to have been 0,5% - 50%, see e.g.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/military-spending-patterns-in-history/

Just letting it vary in the 1% - 2% range seems a little limited. It should probably increase greatly in a real war (not colonial police actions like Afghanistan and Iraq), say by a factor ten or twenty...

The relation between 0,5 (non-militaristic societies) and 1,5 (militaristic societies) is probably fine in peacetime, but the actual percentage should vary with international tensions between perhaps 0,5 - 10% or even higher. I have seen estimates of Soviet spending between 20 - 50% on the military during the Cold War, i.e. in peacetime.

In the end it's up to Referee fiat.

 

[atpollard]

"Pocket Empires RU's into standard Credits"
From Pocket Empires, an RU is 5,000MCr. A Gigacredit.

In Mileu 0, at TL 12 on the Imperial Capital.
As the Imperium changes in TL, the standard Imperial Credit will change as well and RUs are all calculated in local credits which need to be converted to standard Imperial Credits. It was not going to be quick, easy or pretty.

 

[Reynard]

Has anyone really calculated a thousand years of inflation? Seems real simple to say the conversion works for the campaign timeframe.

 

[Condottiere]

For comparison, I use one to five exchange rate for Credit Imperiale to present day United States Dollar.

 

[atpollard]

Has anyone really calculated a thousand years of inflation? Seems real simple to say the conversion works for the campaign timeframe.

It isn't an issue of 'inflation' per se in T4 Pocket Empires, it is the definition of RU in 'local credits' and the definition of 'CrImp' being variable based on the TL of the Imperial Core. So the 1 RU = 5000 MCr is for a TL 12 Imperium. A TL 15 Imperium will have a different value for 1 RU. Add to this the fact that the RU for any specific world is calculated at the TL of that world in local credits and needs to be converted to CrImp for comparison to other worlds (like if a TL 8 world wants to buy a TL 12 navy from another world.)

That was why I was happy to see someone match the Imperium GDP using another system (Striker/TCS) as a starting point.

 

[Pyromancer]

Related matter: Trade volume. I'd like to have a starting point for a rough estimate of how many ships go from A to B per week.

 

[Reynard]

See, that's weird since I never remember players (and the referee) having to constantly readjust their money's buying power with the change of tech level on each world they visit. It seemed reasonable the larger government, in this case the Imperium, stabilize the value to a point a credit is a credit is a credit. You have enough to worry about with government tax rates.

 

[Reynard]

Pyromancer, the original print of T5 has a value formulation that determined how many ships traded at a world per week based on the world's Importance. It determined this by starport, tech level and trade codes.

 

[Pyromancer]

Pyromancer, the original print of T5 has a value formulation that determined how many ships traded at a world per week based on the world's Importance. It determined this by starport, tech level and trade codes.

Do you remember in which chapter this is?

 

[Reynard]

In Worldgen Section E, Importance Extension (page 411 of T5.09). The is a table showing weekly and daily ship traffic for the importance of the world. The subsequent Economic Extension formulates RU for the world.

 

[Pyromancer]

In Worldgen Section E, Importance Extension (page 411 of T5.09). The is a table showing weekly and daily ship traffic for the importance of the world. The subsequent Economic Extension formulates RU for the world.

Thanks!

 

[atpollard]

See, that's weird since I never remember players (and the referee) having to constantly readjust their money's buying power with the change of tech level on each world they visit. It seemed reasonable the larger government, in this case the Imperium, stabilize the value to a point a credit is a credit is a credit. You have enough to worry about with government tax rates.

From the Player's end, everything was in the standard Imperial Credit, so unless your players time travel, it would not matter. It is the Planetary RU where 1 RU on world A is not equal to 1 RU on world B but rather represents equivalent local buying power. So every world has a unique RU to standard Imperial Credit conversion (and that rate changes as the maximum TL of the Imperium changes).

Think of it this way, a TL 4 factory to employ 100 workers will cost 1 RU on a TL 4 world and a TL 15 factory to employ 100 workers will cost 1 RU on a TL 15 world. A TL 4 factory will not cost the same amount in Standard Credits as a TL 15 Factory, nor will it produce the same quantity or value of goods per day. So 1 RU at TL 4 is not the same as 1 RU at TL 15. So a credit is a credit, but all RUs are not equal.

 

[Pyromancer]

Starting with real world data:
Only looking at containerized cargo, a rough base number for import/export seems to be around 1 or 2 TEU per million $ of GDP.
Assuming that around half the cargo is containerized, and with 2.5 dton = 1 TEU, and assuming 1 Cr = 10 $, a base cargo ship traffic number of 40 dton per year and MCr GDP seems reasonable. This has to be further modified by starport type, trade codes, and planets in the vicinity. Objections? Better ideas?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I like the method, but interstellar shipping is much more expensive than current intercontinental shipping, hence only cargo with a high value per volume are likely to be shipped, hence lower total shipping volumes.

 

[Reynard]

RUs are a value of all resources on a planet that can be measured equally on any world so you have a base for comparison. These resources taken as a whole. The planet might use different forms of currency locally but the overall value is measured as RU and that number is a standard credit amount. Since no one (we know about) is time travelling to Year 0, there's no need to convert the standard Credit up or down. As everyone in the Imperium knows, a credit is a credit and the RU, as far as I've seen, has not been revalued in the Traveller universe to reflect and inflation or devaluation over the centuries. You could say over 1100 years it averages itself.

 

[Condottiere]

Technically speaking, currency exchange rates reflect how many commodities can I and do I want to import from your planet, aggregated by what the neighbouring systems import from there; because if there's nothing I want from that planet, there might be something I want from the other systems that do import.

 

[Pyromancer]

I like the method, but interstellar shipping is much more expensive than current intercontinental shipping, hence only cargo with a high value per volume are likely to be shipped, hence lower total shipping volumes.

Right! Let's work with a nice round number like 10 dtons per MCr a year.

 

[Pyromancer]

Potential trade volume is modified by starport type:
Starport type: trade volume modifier
"A": 2
"B": 1
"C": .8
"D": .5
"E": .1
"X": 0

Potential trade volume (in dton per year) = GDP (in MCr) * 10 * trade volume modifier.

Actual trade depends on whether there is a trade partner in a 4-hex-radius.

Using those numbers on a small empire, the Democratic League of Progress (sorry, German trade codes):

Weblaan          0106   C676846-7        Ga Lo             G 
Pencearg         0107   C7B0646-8        Wü Dü Lo            
Eegan            0109   C5A0646-9 S      Wü Dü             G 
Ystaculien       0110   B9F9946-C R      Li Hi Ni          G 
Lamess           0206   B263746-9 F      Ni                G 
Gilrad           0207   D676646-3 S      Ga Dü             G 
Mette            0208   D8E7646-7        Li Lo Ni          G 
Juger            0307   D6D6746-7        Li                G 


Trade of world Weblaan with trade potential: 8736000.0
  Import: 
    Juger : 27660.0
    Lamess : 267410.0
    Pencearg : 5125.0
    Ystaculien : 8435110.0
    Gilrad : 137.0
    Eegan : 281.0
    Mette : 276.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 17012.0
    Lamess : 184842.0
    Pencearg : 4103.0
    Ystaculien : 8529379.0
    Gilrad : 106.0
    Eegan : 301.0
    Mette : 256.0


Trade of world Pencearg with trade potential: 45864.0
  Import: 
    Juger : 143.0
    Lamess : 1291.0
    Ystaculien : 40319.0
    Gilrad : 2.0
    Eegan : 3.0
    Weblaan : 4103.0
    Mette : 3.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 73.0
    Lamess : 823.0
    Ystaculien : 39829.0
    Gilrad : 2.0
    Eegan : 13.0
    Weblaan : 5125.0
    Mette : 5.0


Trade of world Eegan with trade potential: 55036.8
  Import: 
    Juger : 77.0
    Lamess : 200.0
    Pencearg : 13.0
    Ystaculien : 54436.0
    Weblaan : 301.0
    Gilrad : 1.0
    Mette : 9.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 10.0
    Lamess : 45.0
    Pencearg : 3.0
    Ystaculien : 54697.0
    Weblaan : 281.0
    Gilrad : 0.0
    Mette : 3.0


Trade of world Ystaculien with trade potential: 338520000.0
  Import: 
    Juger : 272963.0
    Lamess : 1125290.0
    Pencearg : 39829.0
    Weblaan : 8529379.0
    Eegan : 54697.0
    Gilrad : 2662.0
    Mette : 21443.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 285366.0
    Lamess : 1207068.0
    Pencearg : 40319.0
    Weblaan : 8435110.0
    Eegan : 54436.0
    Gilrad : 2654.0
    Mette : 21286.0


Trade of world Lamess with trade potential: 1404000.0
  Import: 
    Juger : 11078.0
    Pencearg : 823.0
    Ystaculien : 1207068.0
    Gilrad : 55.0
    Eegan : 45.0
    Weblaan : 184842.0
    Mette : 89.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 9506.0
    Pencearg : 1291.0
    Ystaculien : 1125290.0
    Gilrad : 81.0
    Eegan : 200.0
    Weblaan : 267410.0
    Mette : 222.0


Trade of world Gilrad with trade potential: 2866.5
  Import: 
    Juger : 22.0
    Lamess : 81.0
    Pencearg : 2.0
    Ystaculien : 2654.0
    Weblaan : 106.0
    Eegan : 0.0
    Mette : 0.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 12.0
    Lamess : 55.0
    Pencearg : 2.0
    Ystaculien : 2662.0
    Weblaan : 137.0
    Eegan : 1.0
    Mette : 1.0


Trade of world Mette with trade potential: 21840.0
  Import: 
    Juger : 66.0
    Lamess : 222.0
    Pencearg : 5.0
    Ystaculien : 21286.0
    Gilrad : 1.0
    Eegan : 3.0
    Weblaan : 256.0
  Export: 
    Juger : 20.0
    Lamess : 89.0
    Pencearg : 3.0
    Ystaculien : 21443.0
    Gilrad : 0.0
    Eegan : 9.0
    Weblaan : 276.0


Trade of world Juger with trade potential: 312000.0
  Import: 
    Lamess : 9506.0
    Pencearg : 73.0
    Ystaculien : 285366.0
    Weblaan : 17012.0
    Eegan : 10.0
    Gilrad : 12.0
    Mette : 20.0
  Export: 
    Lamess : 11078.0
    Pencearg : 143.0
    Ystaculien : 272963.0
    Weblaan : 27660.0
    Eegan : 77.0
    Gilrad : 22.0
    Mette : 66.0

As can be seen, Ystaculien is the top importer/exporter, and can use only a small fraction of its trade potential because there are not enough trade partners.
Nonetheless, there are around two 10,000dton kilofreighters a day going in/out for Weblaan, and two per week for Lamess.