UPDATE frequencies on broken worlds in MGT generation

captainjack23

Cosmic Mongoose
Generally, there seem to be several types of planets deemed impossible, or at least extremely unlikely. Putting those issues aside, as I don;t haev all week, I started wondering about just how often they came up -this was especially interesting as many of the anomaly worlds are presented in sector data that may or may not have much to do with the worldgen for that edition at that time. So, lets baseline it for comparison, and I'll present it from what I hope is an impartial veiwpoint as to liklihood of generation.

Theoretically, what we can generate is a semi-quantitative error rate for a system by counting failure rate compared to success rate in two categories: (identified by sort of a casuallly observed consensus of those finding the errors) : worlds that stress suspension of disbelief vs worlds that don't, and worlds that are physically impossible vs worlds which are at least possible)

Physical issues
Small planet, heavy atmosphere

Disbelief issues:
Horrible atmosphere, hi population
High grade starport, low or no population.

Disbelief can include some Tech identified anomalies that I'll also add in as I get time. And feel free to suggest more in either category.
 
For Size/ATM issues, from 1000010 MGT generated planets:

Code:
       SIZ
--------------------------------------
       1         2      5185      5.18
       1         3      5702       5.7
       1         4      5180      5.18
       1         5      4310      4.31
       1         6      3098       3.1
       2         2      5185      5.18
       2         3      5702       5.7
       2         4      5180      5.18
       2         5      4310      4.31
       2         6      3098       3.1
       2         7      1935      1.93
       3         2      5185      5.18
       3         3      5702       5.7
       3         4      5180      5.18
       3         5      4310      4.31
       3         6      3098       3.1
       3         7      1935      1.93
       3         8      1083      1.08
       4         2      5185      5.18
       4         3      5702       5.7
       4         4      5180      5.18
       4         5      4310      4.31
       4         6      3098       3.1
       4         7      1935      1.93
       4         8      1083      1.08
       4         9       398       0.4
                         26891     26.89
remember, siz 0 = 0 atm

As rule of thumb here, a frequency of about 4% gives an average count of about 1.5 examples per subsector, and an 80% chance fof getting at least one example.

So, even if ATM 2 is deemed okay (converted to A or whatever by whatever means, we get : 21706 %21.7 ( with no change in frequency for included cases) overall occurrance.

If the anomaly is accepted as size<5 and ATM >1 OR ATM >2, averaged count rate for this issue comes in at at ~24% or 9.6 per subsector. And just about any of the expamples are likely to occur at least once.
 
For subsector A of the CT quadrant I generated, there were 14 worlds with impossible atmospheres (size 4-, atm 2-9) out of a total of 37. I can count up the rest this evening.
 
EDG said:
For subsector A of the CT quadrant I generated, there were 14 worlds with impossible atmospheres (size 4-, atm 2-9) out of a total of 37. I can count up the rest this evening.

Using your criterea, the expected average is about 11. I doubt theres any significant difference.
 
Atmosphere and Population anomalies: "Hellhome sweet Hellhome"

There's a less consensus about what constitutes too much population or what atmospheres are the issue.

I'll use two population cuts:
Not Lo Pop (6+)
and High Pop (9+)

I see two main subgroups of hellhole planets, based on engineering issues and different stretches of disbelief:hostile atmospheres (A/B+ ATM) and insufficient atmospheres ( <4):

I'll call the first group "hostile Hellholes" , and the second "suffocating hellholes"

I'll use ATM B+ for hostile status with A+ as an option, also; and ATM <4 for suffocating status.

I'll run both for both population groups options

Hostile Hellholes
first: most egregious case:
Hi Pop, B+ ATM
Code:
     ATM  Pop 9
----------------------------
      11       152  0.15 
      12       154  0.15 

     ATM   Pop 10
----------------------------
      11        63  0.06 
      12        86  0.09

Including ATM A (exotic)

  ATM         Pop 9
----------------------------
      10       241  0.24 
      11       152  0.15 
      12       154  0.15 

  ATM     Pop 10
----------------------------
      10       113  0.11 
      11        63  0.06 
      12        86  0.09

So looking at the stats for these, there really aren't very many of them: .46%. as an expected result, with a per subsector count of ~ .18. Note that that's eight-tenths of one hostile hellhole (now that's a name for an album) so you you get something like 1 per five subsectors .

The chance of getting at least one in any given subsectoris 1 - (.99.54 ^40) or 17%. or, alternatively an 83% chance of none.


Adding A (exotic) ups it some, to 809 or about .81%....(again, note the decimal. ) with a per subsector count of ~ . 32...so you need three -four subsectors to get the expected count to exceed 1. About one per quadrant, and almost half of them will be ATM A hostile hellholes. Again, still not long odds of getting at least one.

That said, The type A hellholes really fit in the other category of suggested disbelievable worlds: suffocating. It contains the worlds that mainly kill thorough suffocation or decompression.

Suffocating hellholes (no, not just my hometown)
Code:
ATM 0-3,A; pop 9+

Total, all ATM 
   N        %
------------------
    3098   3.1
all ATM
                      N       %
---------------------------------
ATM =A       354  0.35 
ATM =3       784  0.78 
ATM =2       660  0.65  
ATM =1       496   0.49 
ATM =0       804   0.80
Average will be 1.24 per subsector
with a72% chance of getting at least one suffocating hellhole (9+Pop) per subsector - or 28% chance of none. If present, most likely type is 0 (vac) or 3 (V thin).

Settin the population cut at 6+ (as suggested)
we get:
Code:
                      N       %
---------------------------------
ALL ATM     15672  15.67 
ATM =A      1795  1.79 
ATM =3      4022  4.02 
ATM =2      3332  3.33 
ATM =1      2564  2.56 
ATM =0      3959  3.95

As expected, the rate goes way up.

At these levels you certainly get at least one example, and probably several - in fact, three of the specific exaples have a good (50%< chance of showing up). (rule of thumb: for 40 iterations, 2% is about the 50/50 point for getting at least one example)

Of course, it is important to note this does tend to change the nature of the anomaly from Extreme overpopulation + lousy atmosphere" to "somewhat greater than average population + lousy atmosphere", so the belief stretching is different enough to make them less than useful comparisons for each other.


Expanding the POP criterea for the Hostile Hellholes, we get:
Code:
The SAS System                              12:15   February 8, 2008 105
                  N       %
---------------------------------
ALL ATM      2222  2.22 
ATM =B      1091  1.09 
ATM =C      1131  1.13

So, with the expanded population.: expected value of .8-.9 per subsector with about a 60% chance of getting one or more per subsector.

In many ways, given the atmosphere issues, this anomaly is likely more comprable to its alternate harsh atmosphere grouping- the question is really much more along the lines of " How do they live there" than "why".


Starports and population: "Ghost towns and potemkin villages"
Again, I'll stay away from the tech anomalies (for now)

Anomolous ports come in two flavors, again varying by the population. The most obvious case is the 0 population planet with A or B starport status. These I'll categorize as "Phantom Ports" - much like the old western Ghost towns - a facility with no local population to support the infrastructure.

Heres the breakdown for Ghost ports


A/B and 0 pop

Code:
PORT                      N       %
---------------------------------
PORTS A and B        816  0.82
PORTS A                 239  0.24
PORTS B                 577  0.58


Expected frequency per subsector is .32 (note the decimal); or about 1.3 per quadrant. More than half of those phantom ports will be class B.

For a subsector, the chance of getting at least one is: 28%, or another way, a 72% chance of not having one in any given subsector.

Expected frequency for a sector is about 5.

Adding in Starports that aren't expected to be unmanned (such as E,X), we get:


D+ and Pop 0:
Code:
PORT                 N   %
-----------------------------
PORTS A-D      2419  2.41 
PORT  A            239  0.24
PORT  B            577  0.58
PORT  C            896  0.9
PORT  D            707  0.71
Additionally, there is a larger group of oddities that include the above, adding low population worlds- I'll call these "Potemkin ports"

[The reference is to a series of fake farming villages in an impoverished area set up by a government official to impress his superior. An alternate description is "porkbarrel ports"; a situation where an area gets a way bigger government project than it needs simply to create wealth locall, and votes specifically]

When expanding the population criterea it seems that the target group is best defined by B+ port and 3- pop.
N %
-----------------------------
PORTS A & B 7795 7.80
PORT A 2318 2.32
PORTS 5477 5.48


Giving expected frequency of about 3 per subsector, with a 96% chance of getting at least one per subsector.

However, this does change the nature of the anomaly from "why is it there "to how is it supported"

Thats enough for now, I suspect. Work (paid work) calls
 
I was gonna say, this is what I'd consider as "Horrible atmosphere, hi population", and as "High grade starport, low or no population."

Horrible atmosphere, hi population: Atm 0-3, A-C. Pop 6+ (bearing in mind that this is cramming a lot into a pretty narrow definition. Some atmospheres are more horrible than others for example).

High grade starport, low or no population: I'd also include Tech Level here.

Starport A: Pop 7+ and/or Tech 9+
Starport B: Pop 5+ and/or Tech 7+
Starport C: Pop 3+ and/or Tech 4+
Starport D: Pop 1+ and/or Tech 4+
Starport E: Any Pop and/or any Tech
Starport X: Any Pop and/or Tech 8-

These show the minimums required for the starports. So if a Starport A has pop of 6 or less and/or tech 8 or less, it's a disbelief issue (the pop's too small to support it, and the low tech prevents it from building Starships). Starport E can be found anywhere (even on uninhabited worlds, it just means the world has been surveyed). You also need a minimum of TL 4 to be able to build the tools you need to repair ships and pump fuel.

Starport X generally can't be TL 9 or more, since otherwise the culture would be spacefaring. One could argue that it shouldn't be TL 5 or more really, since such worlds should have airstrips for planes that could at least count as starport D in a pinch.
 
Just for comparison...

For the 250k CT run I've got 67128 worlds (26.85%) that have atmospheres that are impossible in the habitable zone (size 1-4, atm 2-9). Of those, 23078 worlds (9.23% of the 250k) are size 1 or 2 with atm 1+ (also impossible in the habitable zone).
 
EDG said:
Just for comparison...

For the 250k CT run I've got 67128 worlds (26.85%) that have atmospheres that are impossible in the habitabel zone (size 1-4, atm 2-9). About 37.4% of these worlds (23078 worlds) are size 1 or 2 with atm 1+ (also impossible in the habitable zone).


looks like right on the nose. My run generated 26.89%

I don't have my stat file handy, but looks right on the size 1,2 worlds. (the table above doesnt have the atm 1 data broken out.)
 
EDG said:
Horrible atmosphere, hi population: Atm 0-3, A-C. Pop 6+ (bearing in mind that this is cramming a lot into a pretty narrow definition. Some atmospheres are more horrible than others for example).

For CT I've got 44207 worlds that fit the criteria that I bolded above - 17.68% of the 250,000 worlds generated.

So for the CT 250k run I've got:

Worlds with size 4-, atm 2-9 (impossible atmospheres): 67128 (26.85%)
Worlds with size 1 or 2, atm 1+ (impossible atmospheres): 23078 (9.23%)
Worlds with atm 0-3/A-C, pop 6+ (horrible atmospheres): 44207 (17.68%)

For starports, I got:

Worlds with Starport A, (Pop 6- and/or Tech 8-): 31551 (12.62%)
Worlds with Starport B, (Pop 4- and/or Tech 6-): 29403 (11.76%)
Worlds with Starport C, (Pop 2- and/or Tech 3-): 14000 (5.6%)
Worlds with Starport D, (Pop 0 and/or Tech 3-): 5717 (2.29%)
Worlds with Starport X and Tech 9+ : 0 (0%)

So 32.27% of the CT worlds have starports that don't have enough population or technology to support them. Which is rather a lot really.
 
I checked the MGT 250k run and got the following numbers:

Worlds with size 4-, atm 2-9 (impossible atmospheres): 66894 (26.75%)
Worlds with size 1 or 2, atm 1+ (impossible atmospheres): 23334 (9.33%)
Worlds with atm 0-3/A-C, pop 6+ (horrible atmospheres): 44942 (17.98%)

Unsurprisingly that's about the same as CT.

For starports, I got:

Worlds with Starport A, (Pop 6- and/or Tech 8-): 12648 (5.06%)
Worlds with Starport B, (Pop 4- and/or Tech 6-): 20171 (8.07%)
Worlds with Starport C, (Pop 2- and/or Tech 3-): 10778 (4.3%)
Worlds with Starport D, (Pop 0 and/or Tech 3-): 12752 (5.10%)
Worlds with Starport X and Tech 9+ : 0 (0%)

So in total, 22.54% of the starports in MGT don't have sufficient tech or population to support them (by the definitions I've used here). It's better than CT, but still rather a lot.
 
And for comparison, I counted up the stats for the latest (modified) EDG 250k run.

Worlds with size 4-, atm 2-9 (impossible atmospheres): 0
Worlds with size 1 or 2, atm 1+ (impossible atmospheres): 0
Worlds with atm 0-3/A-C, pop 6+ (horrible atmospheres): 12558 (5%).

The first two results aren't exactly surprising :).

The "horrible atmospheres" result is because I consider atms 0-3 and A to be "less horrible" than atm B and C (this is what I was referring to earlier here) - Atm 0-3 or A can have a max pop of 8, whereas atm B can have a max pop of 6 and atm C can have a max pop of 4.

For starports, I got:

Worlds with Starport A, (Pop 6- and/or Tech 8-): 0
Worlds with Starport B, (Pop 4- and/or Tech 6-): 0
Worlds with Starport C, (Pop 2- and/or Tech 3-): 0
Worlds with Starport D, (Pop 0 and/or Tech 3-): 8078 (3.23%)
Worlds with Starport X and Tech 9+ : 0 (0%)

I'm still making up my mind about the starport D restriction. D starports have unrefined fuel (which implies some means to store it and get it into the ship, which implies mechanical tools to build pumps and barrels and water towers etc, and therefore at least primitive industrial technology). So it makes sense to me to require a minimum of 10 people (i.e. pop 1) and some kind of industrial technology (i.e. TL 4). I haven't implemented that in the latest EDG run (I gave A/B/C minimum TLs, but not D) yet, so I've still got a few worlds that are pre-industrial but that have unrefined fuel available at the starport.

But overall I think I've definitely solved the problems that I set out to solve ;).
 
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.
 
Mongoose Gar said:
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.

I.E. The "interstellar bypass" rule, as in "your planet is being demolished for".
 
Mongoose Gar said:
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.

But once it was abandoned, it wouldn't meet the qualifications that it originally had. An abandoned starport "A" won't have operational ship building/repair facilities and refined fuel.

Try going to an abandoned airport and catching a flight.
 
Stuie said:
Mongoose Gar said:
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.

But once it was abandoned, it wouldn't meet the qualifications that it originally had. An abandoned starport "A" won't have operational ship building/repair facilities and refined fuel.

Try going to an abandoned airport and catching a flight.

I've done so. It's not uncommon for people to use abandoned airports for touch and go runs, and flagging someone down is just a matter of getting the pilot's attention.

And a port might not be totally abandoned. A former high-pop world might have built 30 slipways for 1000 tons each... but the local 200 people can only keep one open. It's still a yard with all the tools. (Galena AFB comes to mind: it has quarters for half a TacAirWing, but never had more than a maintenance squadron. Full repair facility for F15's & C130's, but never assigned any permanent party. It was a forward operational point for Elmendorf AFB, and all the aircraft serviced and/or repaired at GAFB were stationed at EAFB.

It still has the facilities, now that it is closed, but no staff. The locals bought it, and it has a massively over-equipped Cessna Repair shop, that can service a Boeing 727...
 
I don't mind that type of situation occasionally, but sure don't like it showing up as frequently as it does in the OTU CT rules.

As an aside, what do you call an abandoned Class A starport with only 20 people still around? D or E?
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I don't mind that type of situation occasionally, but sure don't like it showing up as frequently as it does in the OTU CT rules.

As an aside, what do you call an abandoned Class A starport with only 20 people still around? D or E?

And how frequent is that really? Heres some of my counts based on MGT in another thread, kinda buried
The results for the MGT /Ct are interesting when this anomalous world issue is considered.

Heres the frequency of the pop 0 worlds by starport for 100010 MGT planets:
Code:

PORT count %
------------------------
A 239 0.24
B 577 0.58
C 896 0.90
D 707 0.71
E 392 0.39
X 78 0.07



Total of anomolous worlds, (pop 0 , pop A-D) = 2.4%

Soooooo....the simple version of how many you'll get per sector is about 15. Just less than 1 per subsector. In any subsector theres a 38% chance of never even seeing one example. l
and at that there's a better than 50% chance that that one will be a type D or worse.

Of the classic "anomaly" world, the A0 condition, we get: .24%, or on average, 1.5 total per sector (640 worlds). A 90% chance of not getting any per subsector

Since my original goal here was to resent the actual results from a neutral viewpoint, I'll just say that those are pretty low frequencies.

I'll be updating the initial posts with this and more data as I get to my stat toys today....

I do wonder how much of the accepted wisdom of CT and this class of broken worlds is due to products that didn't use the worldgen, which seems to have been more to be the rule, than otherwise.
 
Mongoose Gar said:
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.

I agree withe Stuie here though - if that's the case then it won't be a type A anymore, it'd be a C at best.

The key IMO is that the starport has working facilities of the sort that distinguish it from others - the moment a Type A loses the ability to build starships, it becomes a B (if it can build non-starships) or a C (if it can only repair ships).

I'd much rather these exceptions be determined by the GM though. That said, one could have a "Random Event" table perhaps that one can roll on after each world is generated - say on a roll of 12 on a 2D a Random Event has occurred to tweak the UWP - that could include "Starport Downgrade" (or upgrade), War (which would decrease starport and/or population), etc.

But that would add some time to the process and possibly complicate things... but it's an idea that could add a bit of controlled uniqueness and oddity to things without sending it into Nonsenseland.
 
EDG said:
Mongoose Gar said:
I'm actually quite ok with "high grade starport, low population", mainly because I love the idea of the vast starport being constructed, then abandoned because of war or shifting trade routes.

I agree withe Stuie here though - if that's the case then it won't be a type A anymore, it'd be a C at best.

The key IMO is that the starport has working facilities of the sort that distinguish it from others - the moment a Type A loses the ability to build starships, it becomes a B (if it can build non-starships) or a C (if it can only repair ships).

I'd much rather these exceptions be determined by the GM though. That said, one could have a "Random Event" table perhaps that one can roll on after each world is generated - say on a roll of 12 on a 2D a Random Event has occurred to tweak the UWP - that could include "Starport Downgrade" (or upgrade), War (which would decrease starport and/or population), etc.

But that would add some time to the process and possibly complicate things... but it's an idea that could add a bit of controlled uniqueness and oddity to things without sending it into Nonsenseland.

I was hoping to stay away from subjective (or logical) discussions of the actual numbers here. As I finish what I was wanting to present, I'll move the info to its own thread, so we can have some harder observations to discuss the nature and frequency of nonsenseland.

What I will say, is that I'm surprised at the differences between perceived frequency, and actual frequency....both for others , and for myself....and in both directions.
 
One other thiing:

Any other nominations for anomaly worlds in either main category ?

To sum up:

1. Physically impossible

small world x possible atmospheres

2. Belief stretching

Hi pop x Harsh atm worlds (B+)
Hi pop x suffocating worlds (A, 0-3)

Phantom starports (high quality v. low pop)
Potemkin Starports (high quality, v. low tech)

I'm thinking of adding these, also:

Empty Lots in Manhattan ( 0 pop worlds surrounded by high pop high tech worlds)
Post apocalyptic parklands (really liveable empty worlds surrounded by the opposite)
crap worlds on trade mains.

I'm a bit surprised at the lack of more in the impossible category. Suggestions ?
 
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