Upcoming Blockade: Dilgar vs. Centauri

[Democratus]

Our campaign marches on and, alas, I have again drawn a Blockade mission. In fact, both players who attacked the Centauri this turn drew Blockade.

I'm still fairly unsatisfied with the balance of this scenario. It is an exceedingly difficult one for the attacker to win. Perhaps we just haven't discovered the tactics needed to even things out.

Here are the forces that will be on the table.

Scenario: Blockade
Priority: Battle

Centauri
Sullust x2
Maximus x2 (one has +2 interceptors from refits)

Sentri flight x16

Dilgar
Targrath x2
Omelos x2
Ochlavita-Ki x3
Jashakar Vi x4
Jashakar Tae x6

Dartfighter flight x14
Torpedofighter flight x24

As usual, I will probably only get to use half these forces as my opponent chooses one side to dash down. He has wisely chosen two of the toughest ships he could bring and a cloud of fighters on defense.

I'm thinking that putting my scout pentacon (Och-Ki, Jash Vi x4) in the center will give me coverage over the whole map. My other ships should be split to either side.

I don't have high hopes, but perhaps I will get lucky.

Any advice from the experienced aces around here?

 

[basaint]

Well since I haven't done his scenario yet and looking at the Centauri's ships, I might have gone with a faster ship than the Sullust. I know it has the beam/Intc, but if you could get off the map in 3 turns w/APE, Id lean more towards that w/Darkners. Same with Havens over Sentri's. But since I bet he's not reading this, this is more about how 'you'll' win.

I would do what you're thinking and set a scout sqdn center map but Id maybe go with the 2 Ome's in the center with that group since they give you 16 missiles alone to the fray plus whatever else is there. keep the Tars on the outside.

my newb 2 cents...

 

[Da Boss]

An important question - how are you dealing with fighters and interceptors now?

 

[Democratus]

An important question - how are you dealing with fighters and interceptors now?

Truth be told, I don't know. So far the only stand-up fight I've been in was Patrol/4. Due to some crazy dice nearly every battle thus far (for all sides) has been a Blockade.

I'm really not certain of how to deal with a Maximus or Sulust that has Interceptors 6 because of attending fighters. I've tried to interdict with my own fighters but he can intercept and then lend Anti-Fighter to his own fighter flights to decimate my ranks. Essentially, he has a 10" Anti-Fighter screen since he can loan out to 8" (and then 2" radius from the recieving fighter flight).

Perhaps in a real battle (Call to Arms, Annihilation, etc.) I could wear him down over time? But in a Blockade you only have 2-3 turns before it's over.

I'm certain that there are fundamental things I'm just not seeing becaue I am brand new to the Dilgar. Any advice would be appreciated.

Edit: One more question regarding blockade. Does the defender get 1 VP for every fighter that escapes off the board? Seems an even easier way to win if he does.

 

[Da Boss]

I would suggest (not a Dilgar player) that you set up fairly far back and centrally as you have good range on the missiles.

Choose one Sullust and just keep firing everything at it - don't split fire and you will wear down the interceptors - there is a finite limit where extra interceptor dice don't really matter - I think its around 4 as you quickly get to the 1 dice at 6's stage. Scouted and hull 5 should meen lots of hits to intercept - and at some point the interceptors should fail and you get hit and crited. (or not but if the Goddess of Luck is that much against you nothing will work)

The Centauri ships are not that fast (8 and 10) and either need to choose to be on CBD or All Power - ignore his fighters and use yours to defend your ships.

I would seriously suggest using one of the less kind intrepretations of the fighter interceptor rules........................

If you are lucky you may be able to get into his side arc with one or two of your crusers and let fly with bolters to wear them down.

Ken may have better ideas

regarding fighter VP - not sure but shouldn't be - likely its 1 VP per patrol point of fighters (so 1 every 4) as long as they are bought - but you would get the same for killing them.

 

[Democratus]

Well, the main rulebook in the Scenarios section under Victory Points (p.49) it states:

For Destroying a fighter Flight: Gain 1 Victory Point.

So I should get 1 VP for every flight destroyed. (None of the Sentris are launched by ships).

Also, the rules for Blockade (p.53) state:

[The blockade-running player] gains the full Victory Point value of every ship moved off the table in this way, regardless of condition, as if it had been destroyed.

(emphasis mine)

Unless I can make a good argument that fighters aren't ships then it seems I must destroy not only his ships but his fighters in order to score a victory.

 

[Burger]

P&P fixed fighter VPs. You get a patrol point's worth of VPs for every wing or part thereof destroyed. So I imagine apply the same to flying off the board.

 

[Democratus]

@Burger:
Ah, there it is on page 11 of P&P. Thanks for pointing that out!

That means he is fielding 24 VP:
Sullust (5 VP) x2
Maximus (3 VP) x2
Sentri Wing(2 VP) x4

Also I'd like to officially thank you for Burger's Ship Viewer. It is my "home base" for just about everything ACTA. Keep up the good work!

@Da Boss:
His typical plan (which he should follow again) will be to run at All Power to Engines! across the board. This will give me two turns to shoot at the Sulusts (one volley of missiles) and 3 turns to fire at the Maximus (the second volley of missiles). Odds are that he will scoot along the far edge of the table so that only 1/2 of my fleet (at best) can engage.

A lucky critical could slow a ship or two down. But I can't count on it. I think there is an excellent chance for killing a single Sullust with concentrated fire. Killing two of them may prove rough.

Thanks again for the discussion. You've got me thinking in new ways.

 

[basaint]

Since Im guessing you're playing tonite or tomorrow, look at the map beforehand and measure out all contingencies.
Ie. his furthest placement after 2 turns barring him winning INIT in diff. places on the map, Your ships after each turn and their ranges and possible diff. arcs, etc

 

[KennyBoy]

With the forces you've got you can field three pentacons (Och Ki leading the scouts is one, 2nd Och with 4 torpedo Jash is the second, last Och Ki leading the four Raid ships is the last), so even in the first turn, when the defender automatically wins initiative, you can skip 3 times and make him place three of the four ships onto the board. The remaining 2 torpedo ships can be paired up or single as further init sinks.
Turn 1, he'll APTE 15" onto the board with the Sulusts and 12" with the Maximus.
If you've got your scouts at the back of the board, the torpedo boys in front of them and the big boys as advanced as you can go, you can then see how he deploys.
If he sends a Maximus and Sulust down each extreme edge, you may not be able to get into missile range with any ships on the 1st Turn, but turn 2 should see the big pentacon bearing down (and you should now be into bolter range) on one side of the board, the rest of your fleet concentrates on the other side.
You've got tons of fighter cover to keep the Centauri fighters from upsetting the attacking ships, you may lose more than your share of dogfights, but you outnumber him by more than 2-1.
Scout redirects should be against the Sulust for the first two, then the Maximus on the side that your big pentacon is going after, if you get all four...happy days, but two should suffice to eliminate the Sulust.
The big squadron can use its missiles (36 AD by my count) to whittle away interceptors on both Centauri ships, then bolters (30) will kill the Sulust... this is - virtually - guaranteed :? (you could be really unlucky however, so I won't say for sure) and the Maximus may have even taken a bit of damage...
The other side of the board may not be as rosy, the torpedo Jashakars and Ochlavita can only put out 12 AD of missiles, but these should be concentrated on the Sulust.
Keeping the pentacons together, you should be able to have another turn of bolter fire against targets on both sides of the board... with redirect, this should really start to hurt the Centauri ships.

 

[Democratus]

KennyBoy, some of that advice sounds good. But I'm a little confused by a few of the things you're saying.

In Turn 1 I can't do anything. No shooting, no moving...nada. The Centauri will get to simply APTE 15" onto the board on Turn 1, shoot anything of mine in range (24") and arc and that will be it. Turn 2 he will APTE again putting him 30" into the board before I will get a single shot. He will most likely move ALL of his ships down a single side. This will essentially remove my ships on the other side of the table from the game for all purposes.

I must split my fleet into left and right elements. If I don't - deploying them instead in the center - it will be impossible for me to move into shooting range before the Sullusts escape.

Thus, I will get a missile strike on the Sullusts with 1/2 my ships on Turn 2 and hopefully a bolter strike on Turn 3. He will be off the board on Turn 4 unless reduced in speed.

Turn 4 will be the last turn for the Maximus on the board. So I will have recharged missiles and bolters for one last push.

I think you're right about keeping the scouts to the rear and center, able to move into the critical 35" range of the enemy.

Fighters will be tough. I can't get too close or they will be eaten by Anti-Fighter before they can even roll for dogfighting (8 Anti-fighter can be lent by the two Maximus). My best hope is to pray for initiative and stand off with the torpedo fighters.

I'm also not sure about your advice to fire missiles first to reduce interceptors. All weapons fire simultaneously - allowing the defender to choose which particular weapons the interceptors will stop first. Is this right or did I miss something? (I'm still new to the rules).

Maybe on the last turn all my Dartfighters should attempt to ram? A shame I can't do it with Torpedofighters.

It will certainly be a desperate fight for the Dilgar. That's what makes this so fun despite the difficulty.

 

[Da Boss]

I'm also not sure about your advice to fire missiles first to reduce interceptors. All weapons fire simultaneously - allowing the defender to choose which particular weapons the interceptors will stop first. Is this right or did I miss something? (I'm still new to the rules).

Oh no - major thing - you choose the order in whihc they fire and he has to intercept them - its a standard tactic to use certain weapons first to deplete them - usually weaker weapons first.

its a big thing in the game

Also just been reading your blog on the campaign - great work by all involved, a most engaging read thanks

 

[Democratus]

Wow. That is huge!

Do you have a page number from the rules that states this? Nobody in my group will believe it unless I can back it up.

 

[Da Boss]

hmm p 18 says:

"When the ship first suffers a hit from an attack in a turn" (this is not optional as I think the intention is it is auto point defence systems)

You declare your firing from a ship weapon by weapon and the firing player chooses which order he fires them.

so a Elutarian can fire its Ion Cannons to deplete the interceptors of a ship and then follow up with its missiles once they are depleted.

Its also a valid tactic firing your beams first in the hope of criticalling or crippling the ship so its interceptors go offline and your conventional weapons then can follow up.

ACTA rules can be a little open to interpretation I guess :wink:
I guess you could argue it does not specially state this but I can say I have never seen a game where this is not the case - at any of the many tournaments and having played with/against the three main playtesters and other very experienced tournament players...........

 

[Democratus]

hmm p 18 says:

"When the ship first suffers a hit from an attack in a turn" (this is not optional as I think the intention is it is auto point defence systems)

Totally with you on this. At one time we thought it was an option to leave interceptors turned off until you wanted them. The above rule cleared that up.

You declare your firing from a ship weapon by weapon and the firing player chooses which order he fires them.

Yeah. Here is the sticking point. I can't find anywhere in the rules where this is actually stated.

With nothing else other than, "some guys on the internet said so" I won't be able to convice my gaming group that all fire isn't simultaneous.

So, barring some cool rulebook find, Interceptor fire in our local area can be directed at the most dangerous incoming damage first. Fooey.

 

[Da Boss]

With nothing else other than, "some guys on the internet said so" I won't be able to convice my gaming group that all fire isn't simultaneous.

So, barring some cool rulebook find, Interceptor fire in our local area can be directed at the most dangerous incoming damage first. Fooey.

Would they agree if one or more of the games Official playtesters confirmed this? I can probably arrange that

 

[Democratus]

Possibly in the near future. Maybe. But this seems even more pulled out of the "intent" of the rules than even the previous discussion about supporting fighters. At least with the fighter issue, we had several possible interpretations of a written rule. With this "fire weapons one at a time" thing there isn't even a sentence in the book I can finagle.

I'll let you know if the guys in my group would like to hear from a playtester. And I appreciate the patience everyone here has shown with my crazy queries!

But, alas, it's too late for this particular battle. I will have a battle report thread written up before the weekend is out.

Wish me luck!

 

[basaint]

You prob. already have this in mind but bring Alpha strike to the table. Couldn't hurt to try it.

 

[KennyBoy]

Sorry Democratus, I forgot that the Dilgar would not be able to move on turn 1
By my reckoning, if the Centauri APTE both turns - as you say he will - at the end of turn 2, the Centauri will be 30" (Sulust) and 24" (Maximus) onto the board.
Starting in the centre, the Dilgar can do nothing in turn 1, but they can't be fired at (Sulust 24" beam, plus 15" move = 39")
End of turn 2 sees the Dilgar slightly advanced then turned towards the Centauri (27" from edge) Unless the Centauri have turned towards the centre slightly, they still can't shoot at you, because you won't be in their front arc.
Turn 3 sees the Sulusts one turn from freedom... this is when the Dilgar APTE towards them... by my calculations the Targraths and Jashakar Tae can get to within 9" of the edge, the Omelos to within 13.5" - this puts ALL ships' (even the Jashakar Taes) Bolters in range.
Your entire fighter fleet will also be involved, these will suffer losses due to AF fire, but you've got dozens of them! If you moved first, fighters tie up the Sentris, the Torpedo fighters descend on the Sulusts. These stay out of AF range and open up with their torps... which should benefit from redirects as you keep the scouts efforts concentrated on the Sulusts.
The Thoruns have now diminished the Interceptors effeciency... the Centauri player CANNOT choose to ignore these missiles and save his Interceptors for the main attack.
Utilising the same redirects, your main pentacon (Omelos/Targrath) opens up on the Sulusts... that should be 18AD of missiles and 15AD of - redirected - Bolter fire at both Sulust... that really should do it!
If not, you've got the Torp pentacon to fire - a further 12AD of missiles, and 18AD of Bolters... split how you like/need.

You would have to be pretty unlucky to not kill off the Sulusts, you've then got another round to concentrate on the Maximus' (of course, you may have lost a Jash or two to return fire, but the big boys should still be able to do the job...)

But as you played last night, all of this is kind of moot now... :lol: :roll:

 

[Burger]

The intent of the interceptors rules, as seen on-screen, is that interceptors are an automated defence system. There isn't a guy sitting in the control room saying "oh here comes a missile, I'll let that through but here's some plasma I'll intercept that" - by the time he'd made that decision it would be too late! The interceptors automatically intercept all incoming fire. As Da Boss showed, the rules support this because the use of interceptors is not optional. Using fighters to take down interceptors is a common tactic since fighters usually have single-damage, non-precise weapons.

Firing is not meant to be simultaneous. The rules don't really state this very explicitly, but we can deduce it from the following facts:

• Interceptors intercept the first weapons to be fired, as Da Boss showed this is not optional
• Shields are taken down by the first weapon to hit them, similarly this is not optional either
• If the first weapon takes a ship to crippled then it loses random traits, and those lost traits (eg. dodge, adaptive armour) do not work against further weapons
• Critical hits affect future weapons, for example if you're on Close Blast Doors and take a No Special Actions crit from the first weapon, you lose the CBD effects for the other weapon attacks
• Same applies fo skeleton crew, you lose special actions benefits for future attacks
• Explosions from destroying one ship can damage another (potentially taking down traits) before you shoot at it with your other weapon systems

So the firing sequence does matter, and makes a big difference to your attacks. Only remaining thing is, can you choose the order in which to fire your weapons or is it compulsory to follow some order? Well you do have to declare the targets for all weapons before firing any of them, but there is no rule to say you must follow the written (or any other) order. In fact ship viewers/sheets including mine, change the order of the weapons from the printed version to make it more useable, ordering weapons by arc, type or power. The rules just say you must nominate a target for each weapon you intend firing, they don't say you must fire them in any particular order - therefore you can choose the order yourself.