Undersea Cruiser

phavoc

Emperor Mongoose
I ran across this article and I have to admit I had never heard of the Surcouf, or an undersea cruiser, or a submarine armed with twin 6" guns. While their aren't any subs in Traveller, I suppose the closest equivalent would be having a large bay mounted on a relatively small ship. Anyways, I thought the ship was interesting and strange enough to share.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/what-happened-to-the-french-undersea-cruiser-surcouf-bermuda-triangle-sunk-byfriendly-fire-or-rammed.html
 
phavoc said:
I ran across this article and I have to admit I had never heard of the Surcouf, or an undersea cruiser, or a submarine armed with twin 6" guns. While their aren't any subs in Traveller, I suppose the closest equivalent would be having a large bay mounted on a relatively small ship. Anyways, I thought the ship was interesting and strange enough to share.

Interesting, read the same article myself recently and hadn't heard of it before.
 
Jeez, I found the link below and read up on her armament - 8", not 6" guns, TWO different types of torpedoes 8 22" tubes and 4 16" tubes. Range of 10,000nm, 90 days worth of food AND it carried it's own floatplane for spotting! It was a lot more submarine than the average U-boat. I am very surprised I had never heard or read of it before. The things you can learn when you click on a link on Facebook.

Well, ok, sometimes it's not a bad idea to follow your mom's advice and not click on every link you see (shudder)...

http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=Surcouf-NN3
 
Treaty limitations curtailed further development during the interwar years, though a number of British experiments in that league sunk, mostly due to flooding, I think.

Whether a cruiser turret or a aircraft hangar, nature loves openings.
 
That one would appear to have structural integrity, and would scare me, if like the NorKies, the Japanese made the nuclear breakthrough and managed to miniaturize the warhead.
 
phavoc said:
I ran across this article and I have to admit I had never heard of the Surcouf, or an undersea cruiser, or a submarine armed with twin 6" guns.
The German navy had a similar undersea cruiser project, the XI.

From Wikipedia:

"The Type XI U-boat was planned as an artillery boat; its main armament would have been four 127-mm guns, in two twin gun turrets. It would have also carried an Arado Ar 231 collapsible floatplane. Four boats (U-112, U-113, U-114, and U-115) were laid down in 1939, but cancelled at the outbreak of World War II. Had the Type XI U-boat been constructed, it would have had a completely new hull design and a submerged displacement of 4,650 tons – she would have been by far the largest of the U-boats and the second-largest diesel submarine after the Japanese I-400-class submarine."
 
phavoc said:
It was a lot more submarine than the average U-boat.

You've never really heard of them because they weren't that successful. It was an interesting vessel, but not particularly effective. It's very typical of inter-war vessels where they were still trying things out. She was also quite expensive.

Well that and she was French. Here in the Anglosphere, you don't hear very much about anything that isn't American or British at all. I'm constantly shocked at my utter ignorance about all kinds of things historical, technological, even in the way of current events if they don't involve the United States or the United Kingdom. The Surcouf also has a certain controversy because there's any number of theories (many of them pretty tinfoil hat) floating around about how she was sunk, what she was carrying, and where she was going. (Though there's surprisingly little written about the French Navy in general during WW2 - I suspect because of the UK's actions during the war towards the French Navy which are, putting it lightly, controversial.)

But back to the unsuccessful thing, they weren't really submarines, any more than U-boats. Like U-boats (and really pretty much every production submarine during the war), they were pretty much all designed to run on the surface of the water as a standard ship most of the time and only submerged for short periods to evade notice - you can pretty much identify all these boats because their surface speeds are okay, but their submerged speeds are terrible. You can tell the late-war 'usually submerged' submarines because of their low surface speeds and high submerged speeds, like the German Type XXI and the Japanese I-201s (both of which were built, but never saw real use).

Back to shortcomings, she was big, kinda clumsy in the water as a result, not particularly speedy, and despite being armed with ~200mm guns, it had the typical basically non-existent armor of a submersible, so pretty much any battle damage would mean she couldn't submerge, but that was mostly okay since the Surcouf was intended more as a commerce raider than something intended to fight warships. However, a U-boat was pretty much better at what they were intended to do - hunt cargo vessels; they were cheaper (so you could make a lot more of them) and pretty much as effective against unarmed or nearly unarmed ships.

Submarines that carried seaplanes were not that uncommon. Again, you'll hear a lot about the UK's attempts to have a submarine with seaplanes but they weren't particularly successful and the UK gave up on them and that's that, the Anglosphere would have you think. But the Imperial Japanese Navy had a number of models of submarines that carried them and they worked fine. However, the trade-offs necessary to have a seaplane hangar on a submarine made the IJN submarines that carried them larger, clumsier in the water, and more expensive -- again less effective as "submarines" - submarines, particularly of that era were best off being lean and mean. Then there's the boondoggle known as the I-400 class of the IJN, often touted as a "submarine aircraft carrier" (a phrase which is sufficient to make any man with an interest in military things turn into a starry-eyed little boy again), but was pretty much another Surcouf type thing - large, expensive ... and um ... "interesting" but not particularly useful.
 
Yeesh; had they made the damn thing, the XI might have shot down my Grandfather...

Back when Radar was an experimental technology, my Grandfather hunted U-Boats in the dead of night from a Naval Air-Force B-24 (technically a PB4Y Liberator) equipped with a Leigh Light. He was the Intelligence Officer, responsible for figuring out what they found, and whether or not they had sunk it. A U-Boat would surface to recharge its batteries, and they would detect it on Radar; they’d line up for a pass on it, and when they got in range, they would turn on the light for a scant few seconds to make the bombing attempt, and then turn the light off before the deck gun on the U-Boat could swivel and fire back. The great part about this tactic was, they didn’t need to hit; if they could scare the sub into diving again, it would have to resurface to recharge during the day... where everyone could find it from its last known position, and sink it. It was an excellent strategy, and my Grandfather was well-honored for keeping the English Channel free of U-Boats just before D-Day.

VPB-114
Squadron Patch
Leigh Light
 
For a variety of reasons, submarine cruisers wasn't really a good idea.

It was innovative, like the seaplane variant, but it would only work if you could take someone by surprise, not likely if it had to spend most of it's time on the surface, and with the introduction of maritime patrol aircraft.

Assuming the concept was viable, a deck mounted six inch quickfirer could efficiently sink any merchantmen you come across, and you could have one on both ends; exactly what required an eight incher that couldn't be hit with a six incher?

Sneaking up on a port at night for bombardment is an option, but any port worth bombarding is likely to have sufficient guard ships to deal with it.

Convoy raiding, the Deutschlands were better suited, but they were also a dead end.
 
In some ways, perhaps the modern expression of the submarine-cruiser is a submarine with submerged-launch anti-ship missiles,

They kind of fill the same tactical role, and have a similar anti-ship armament,
 
That would be more the submerged hangar; I believe the target would be to knock out the Panama Canal.

If that was viable with three floatplanes, and let's say they're out of action for six months, it's certainly a worthwhile strategic target.

Though if it were a pre-emptive strike, a disguised floatplane tender could work as well.
 
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