Tweaking SOTA ... [heavy on the spoilers]

Has anyone ever sat down and worked out the time that passes as these campaigns are played through?

With every trip from one world to the next taking a week, the time it takes to resolve the campaign events etc and assuming a start date of 1105.

Start with MotA, then move on to SotA - what year is it now in setting? Is WotA going to be concurrent with the FFW?
 
That seems like it would be highly variable. Even with an adventure like "Secrets of the Ancients" that is pretty much on rails, exactly how long it takes is going to depend on actions taken by the group. More open campaigns like Mysteries or Pirates are even more difficult to judge.

That kind of calculation that assumes all these events actually happen and there's a timeline is exactly what I don't want. I want "here's the snapshot of the setting and here's some possibilities for how you move it forward." The Referee can mix and match it how they want or run them entirely separately. While there might be book sequences like the Ancients series, at no point are they publishing general setting material that assumes any particular adventure path happened.
 
Isn't that what I said? Go hog wild in your personal campaign. I have never seen anyone disagree with that.

I just don't want Mongoose publishing books that do that and claiming they are Third Imperium Setting. Alternate Settings? Rulebooks of variant techs? Sure. Even adventure arcs like Wrath of the Ancients or Singularity that can change how the Third Imperium setting is are fine, as long as they don't become "and this happened" and they start publishing books that assumes that's what actually happened. But published setting material should remain consistent so people buying it don't have to go "hrmm, is this pre- Wrath or post-Wrath?".

Published settings are starting points for personal campaigns. They should not be treated like everyone is playing in the devs' campaign.
MOTA is world changing.
SOTA is world changing.
WOTA will be world changing.
FFW is world changing.
Deepnight Revelation is world changing.
TPoD is world changing.

You can't play any of them and just "Hey ho, that's done, now let's get back to speculative trade and killing random people in back alley shootouts."
 
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just fond of strawman arguments? Of course you change your campaign based on the stories you choose to tell in it. This is not some sort of controversial point and absolutely no one has said otherwise.

Again, my point is that MONGOOSE should not publish stuff that is based on the assumption that any of those campaigns happened unless they are direct adventure sequels like Mysteries-Secrets-Wrath. It'll just fragment and confuse the market. It should be permanently 1105 in Sourcebook land.

If the next Sector book comes out and it assumes that the Singularity campaign happened, that is, imho, bad. No matter how good Singularity might be. And I don't even think it would be possible to realistically integrate PoD, FFW, WotA, and Singularity into a single canon even if I thought that was a good idea. Which I absolutely don't.

If Mongoose wants to publish a setting with AGI and time folding drives, go ahead. Just like Pioneer and 2300 have different tech assumptions. The game is bigger than any particular setting. There's no reason for Mongoose to make GDW's mistake of constantly undercutting their products with a meta plot. It is my campaign or your campaign. Not their campaign.
 
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just fond of strawman arguments? Of course you change your campaign based on the stories you choose to tell in it. This is not some sort of controversial point and absolutely no one has said otherwise.

Again, my point is that MONGOOSE should not publish stuff that is based on the assumption that any of those campaigns happened unless they are direct adventure sequels like Mysteries-Secrets-Wrath. It'll just fragment and confuse the market. It should be permanently 1105 in Sourcebook land.

If the next Sector book comes out and it assumes that the Singularity campaign happened, that is, imho, bad. No matter how good Singularity might be. And I don't even think it would be possible to realistically integrate PoD, FFW, WotA, and Singularity into a single canon even if I thought that was a good idea. Which I absolutely don't.

If Mongoose wants to publish a setting with AGI and time folding drives, go ahead. Just like Pioneer and 2300 have different tech assumptions. The game is bigger than any particular setting. There's no reason for Mongoose to make GDW's mistake of constantly undercutting their products with a meta plot. It is my campaign or your campaign. Not their campaign.
You're free to stick with the core rulebook and play the trade game forever. The campaigns are there for everybody who wants their characters to go through some extraordinary times of change ... and to steer the course of the universe with their actions, and their accidents.
 
I have no idea why you think that is in any way a response to any thing I said. But it does clarify that there is no actual conversation going on here. So that's useful.
Thank you for your contribution, but bear in mind that Mongoose's official campaigns don't seem to have normative endings to them.
Any of them.
The only solution is to play Traveller from the core rulebook, and never buy any of the official campaigns. It'll save you some real money, because you only really need the CRB to play Traveller. The CRB is a complete game in itself. Always has been.
Again, thanks for your contributions, but you're not going to get the OTU to stay unchanged. It's changed already from 1977. Traveller's going to embrace change yet again next year, with Pioneer. And there's the 2300 reboot, which resembles the original only superficially.
 
Pioneer is an entirely different setting. It will not change the OTU at all. The OTU is not a game system. It is a game setting.

Traveller is a game system. The Third Imperium is a game setting. Pioneer is a game setting. 2300 is a game setting. Mindjammer is an official Traveller setting. I am more than happy for them to make more settings. I am more than happy for them to more rule books with variant rules to inform additional settings.

I am more than happy for them to continue to make campaigns. PoD, Ancients, FFW, Singularity. All fun stuff. It is good to make different things to suit different player groups and give examples to referees of how they can evolve and develop their campaigns.

But publishing adventure campaigns for a setting is different from having a metaplot of constantly obsoleting existing material. If in 2025 they say "Oops, Singularity changed everything. Now we have to make all new Sector Books with post Singularity stuff", that would be a garbage move. That's what GDW did. That is trying to force people to buy and use the campaigns in order to use the generic material. As well as dictating a specific outcome to the campaigns.

Campaigns exist for the Referee and players to change the setting. Not for the publisher to change the setting.
 
I agree and disagree.
One of the things I liked about the old GDW JTAS were the TAS news items, they sort of advanced the setting but without changing much.
I think the fall of the Imperium was already built into early supplements and adventures - Gibbon and Asimov inspired.
Note too that players discover the secret of the Ancients, but it never becomes public knowledge.
There are almost no adventures that actually require the FFW to be in the background or to have just taken place.

All the FFW did was to replace the TAS News items which were useful adventure inspiration with pointless war dispatches. I know GDW were a wargame company first, but this was when their bias began to affect the Third Imperium setting.

Then the decision was taken to revamp Traveller, but they farmed this out to DGP. Rather than produce a third edition they opted to produce a Frankenstein's monster of stitched together rules, outright mistakes, and worst of all the wholesale change of the setting.

I need go no further into the future history as my point has now been made. Every setting change removes referee agency.

Now I do like some of these future settings; the Hard Times of MT is a favourite, as is the rebuilding and exploration of TNE.

I like the idea of these settings being detailed for MgT, but I would do a MgT FFW to them, the outcome is not pre-determined. Also set them at "some time in the future" rather than a definitive date.
 
The trouble with the Ancients is everyone knows their secret - or at least they think they do.
Our problem is that we know the Ancients' secret - Grandfather, and his monologuing. We're also aware of the events of SOTA, Seven, the Final War, all of that.
The Travellers don't. They aren't supposed to know. Not until it all begins to unfold on them.
The whole Ancients Trilogy opens up a universe to the Travellers. If your guys are used to just grubbing around, playing the Trade Game, indulging in some ransacking to order from a paying Patron, taking on basic jobs to get enough money to pay the mortgage on your Free Trader, you're going to find the expanding vistas of the universe and the dizzying depths of 300,000 years of history a little too much.
And then, if you introduce billion-year old Precursors, Primordials, and true immortals, and histories going back to not long after the Big Bang, you're going to have a whole different kind of story.
It'll still be Traveller. But your characters will be a little preoccupied with things other than guns.
 
The problem so far, with both MOTA and SOTA is that both are horribly linear, with TPK a distinct possibility at many different points in both. Not just TPK but total destruction! Also I have a problem with the setting of each, particularly considering that spoilers in MOTA suggest that WOTA may be set in the Trojan Reach or to Spinward or Trailward of the Reach, as the distances to get from one adventure setting to the next, make the distances involved in POD seem miniscule in comparison. Glisten subsector in the Spinward Marches to Uthe in Gvurrdon, to some subsector in the Trojan Reach or Reft sectors, that is a lot of flying around, with well over a year in downtime in total in a Jump-2 ship, getting from one adventure setting to the next in the campaign. It makes me think that allowing the PC's to take both "Yusote's ship" and "the Dart" at the end of both published parts of the campaign is the only way to go! I know all my players will say, how can we afford all this flying around getting from one sector to the next sector over but one, and even the merchant player is going to tire of trying to keep his ship afloat, just using his Broker skill, to get from Glisten to Uthe, and then from there somewhere a long way Rimward. And don't get me started on the feasibility of even starting this campaign without a ship, unless the PC's are planning on using low berths everywhere, which the Noble will just refuse to do, quite rightly in my opinion!

Seems to me that a Scout Ship is the only logical ship for the PC's to have, with how the first two parts of the Campaign have been written so far?
 
Already, for instance, there are things like Travellermap, showing parts of the galaxy far beyond the characters' reach unless you, as Referee, come up with anomalies (call them "slipstream conduits" or "tachyon eddies") to allow them to visit these far flung sections of the galaxy. And then there are these campaigns, such as The Great Rift, Deepnight Revelations, and The Solomani Rim Expeditions, which give your Travellers a reason to head Out There.
And High Guard has included new and exotic technologies to allow the Travellers to wander far without the constraints of current Jump technology - Collectors, to reduce the need for fuel; Space Folding Drives, Hyperdrive, Warp Drive, again to loosen those constraints.
 
I agree and disagree.
One of the things I liked about the old GDW JTAS were the TAS news items, they sort of advanced the setting but without changing much.
I think the fall of the Imperium was already built into early supplements and adventures - Gibbon and Asimov inspired.
Note too that players discover the secret of the Ancients, but it never becomes public knowledge.
There are almost no adventures that actually require the FFW to be in the background or to have just taken place.

All the FFW did was to replace the TAS News items which were useful adventure inspiration with pointless war dispatches. I know GDW were a wargame company first, but this was when their bias began to affect the Third Imperium setting.

Then the decision was taken to revamp Traveller, but they farmed this out to DGP. Rather than produce a third edition they opted to produce a Frankenstein's monster of stitched together rules, outright mistakes, and worst of all the wholesale change of the setting.

I need go no further into the future history as my point has now been made. Every setting change removes referee agency.

Now I do like some of these future settings; the Hard Times of MT is a favourite, as is the rebuilding and exploration of TNE.

I like the idea of these settings being detailed for MgT, but I would do a MgT FFW to them, the outcome is not pre-determined. Also set them at "some time in the future" rather than a definitive date.
The early TAS dispatches were interesting color. I remember enjoying reading them. Though they rarely impacted my game, they inspired me to always be adding that sort of "wider world is doing stuff" feel to my games.

Hard Times I liked a lot. It was a set of guidelines for how the Referee can manage a change to the setting based on events. One of the few things published in that era that actually helped run the game instead of just telling you what the publisher has decided to have happen.

A campaign of political intrigue and Rebellion would be cool. Just not as a "this is what happens".

For TNE, I would just make a separate setting built around star vikings and whatnot. Traveller 6500 or whatever :D
 
The problem so far, with both MOTA and SOTA is that both are horribly linear, with TPK a distinct possibility at many different points in both. Not just TPK but total destruction! Also I have a problem with the setting of each, particularly considering that spoilers in MOTA suggest that WOTA may be set in the Trojan Reach or to Spinward or Trailward of the Reach, as the distances to get from one adventure setting to the next, make the distances involved in POD seem miniscule in comparison. Glisten subsector in the Spinward Marches to Uthe in Gvurrdon, to some subsector in the Trojan Reach or Reft sectors, that is a lot of flying around, with well over a year in downtime in total in a Jump-2 ship, getting from one adventure setting to the next in the campaign. It makes me think that allowing the PC's to take both "Yusote's ship" and "the Dart" at the end of both published parts of the campaign is the only way to go! I know all my players will say, how can we afford all this flying around getting from one sector to the next sector over but one, and even the merchant player is going to tire of trying to keep his ship afloat, just using his Broker skill, to get from Glisten to Uthe, and then from there somewhere a long way Rimward. And don't get me started on the feasibility of even starting this campaign without a ship, unless the PC's are planning on using low berths everywhere, which the Noble will just refuse to do, quite rightly in my opinion!

Seems to me that a Scout Ship is the only logical ship for the PC's to have, with how the first two parts of the Campaign have been written so far?
I think the Travellers may be starting to realise that they're going to need ships capable of a lot more than just two puddly parsecs per week and refuelling every Jump, even if they no longer need to worry about paying the mortgage.
That's where the exotic tech of High Guard should definitely come in handy.
 
The problem so far, with both MOTA and SOTA is that both are horribly linear, with TPK a distinct possibility at many different points in both. Not just TPK but total destruction! Also I have a problem with the setting of each, particularly considering that spoilers in MOTA suggest that WOTA may be set in the Trojan Reach or to Spinward or Trailward of the Reach, as the distances to get from one adventure setting to the next, make the distances involved in POD seem miniscule in comparison. Glisten subsector in the Spinward Marches to Uthe in Gvurrdon, to some subsector in the Trojan Reach or Reft sectors, that is a lot of flying around, with well over a year in downtime in total in a Jump-2 ship, getting from one adventure setting to the next in the campaign. It makes me think that allowing the PC's to take both "Yusote's ship" and "the Dart" at the end of both published parts of the campaign is the only way to go! I know all my players will say, how can we afford all this flying around getting from one sector to the next sector over but one, and even the merchant player is going to tire of trying to keep his ship afloat, just using his Broker skill, to get from Glisten to Uthe, and then from there somewhere a long way Rimward. And don't get me started on the feasibility of even starting this campaign without a ship, unless the PC's are planning on using low berths everywhere, which the Noble will just refuse to do, quite rightly in my opinion!

Seems to me that a Scout Ship is the only logical ship for the PC's to have, with how the first two parts of the Campaign have been written so far?
I am a sandbox referee myself, but the success of "Adventure Paths" for other game companies tells me that a linearity of MotA/SotA is something a lot of folks like. If that was all Mongoose published in campaigns, it would be annoying to me. But having a mix of PoD and SotA isn't bad.

Regarding the ship, that's more a matter of reading the table. If your group isn't interested in the trade game, just don't get too bogged down in that. Just have it be flavor in the background and prompts for adventures to break up the linearity of the campaign. Supposedly, Adventure Class Ships that is coming out in a couple weeks will have some suggestions of other ways to finance PC ships besides the mortgage, at least if I understood a comment Matt made in response to one of my posts about mercantile campaigns.
 
I calculate that if you can lower the default cost of the starship to a tad below thirteen megastarbux, rolling for it once would make it free and clear to the roller.
 
Ship Shares in T5 are, IIRC, just 50 tons of ship free and clear. So if the group has 4 ship shares between them, that's a 200 ton ship that they just own. Merchant ships with no mortgage sort of have the opposite problem, not enough expenses. The game uses the mortgage to stand in for most of the business expenses for simplicity.

But most players in m experience are looking to be space traders in the Firefly or John Falkayn sense "umm, we are space trading around the galaxy, but the actual trading rarely shows up on screen". So it is easy enough to abstract that.
 
I must be in the minority here but the majority of the groups I have run Traveller for over the years have no interest in being ethically challenged merchants. The ship is just the means to get to the next scenario.

In point of fact the very first referee of Traveller I gamed with ran his game using teleporters to get from world to world because he couldn't be bothered with the ships at all.
 
The problem so far, with both MOTA and SOTA is that both are horribly linear, with TPK a distinct possibility at many different points in both. Not just TPK but total destruction! Also I have a problem with the setting of each, particularly considering that spoilers in MOTA suggest that WOTA may be set in the Trojan Reach or to Spinward or Trailward of the Reach, as the distances to get from one adventure setting to the next, make the distances involved in POD seem miniscule in comparison. Glisten subsector in the Spinward Marches to Uthe in Gvurrdon, to some subsector in the Trojan Reach or Reft sectors, that is a lot of flying around, with well over a year in downtime in total in a Jump-2 ship, getting from one adventure setting to the next in the campaign. It makes me think that allowing the PC's to take both "Yusote's ship" and "the Dart" at the end of both published parts of the campaign is the only way to go! I know all my players will say, how can we afford all this flying around getting from one sector to the next sector over but one, and even the merchant player is going to tire of trying to keep his ship afloat, just using his Broker skill, to get from Glisten to Uthe, and then from there somewhere a long way Rimward. And don't get me started on the feasibility of even starting this campaign without a ship, unless the PC's are planning on using low berths everywhere, which the Noble will just refuse to do, quite rightly in my opinion!

Seems to me that a Scout Ship is the only logical ship for the PC's to have, with how the first two parts of the Campaign have been written so far?
Travel time and the "age of sail" feel is a part of the setting that is fairly foundational. A large part of the reason why some of these places are adventure sites instead of tourist destinations is because it is difficult to go there. An African safari for a European of the 18th century is quite a bit different than one for someone today.

I think part of the reason that some adventures feel linear is because people don't consider the travel time as space for other adventures. I look at MotA and see a bunch of scenes that will happen in a campaign over months, with plenty of other adventures in between as players travel to and fro. Traveller has always been like that. The original Twilight's Peak started in the Regina subsector and ended in the Rhylanor subsector. You weren't expected to be "playing Twilight's Peak" every session. It was an overarching through line as the group did other adventures between finding octagons and whatnot. Giving them a reason to go to planet X instead of Planet Y. The Kinunir, The Traveller Adventure, The Imperial Fringe, Leviathan, and a number of other adventures from the early days of Traveller were the same sort of sandbox design.

You can certainly accelerate travel speeds. The mindjammer setting for Traveller has very fast travel. The main effect on gameplay is to reduce the amount of adventure along the way. That's useful if you approach it as "I'm running this adventure, so that's what the players should be doing every week.". SotA has more rails than most, but there is still plenty of travel time to flesh it out and make it less linear. But if you like the linearity, as some do, then you can just be "and you travel to the next spot" with the tabletop equivalent of a cutscene. If the travel isn't interesting, fast forward it. Or change the travel paradigm entirely.

My players are not super interested in the minutiae of trade, so I just run it as contract space trucking. The broker turns up a list of contracts to ship goods from where they are to other places that pay enough to cover the expenses with a crew bonus. "Ship this machinery to the mining station at Fulacin within 8 weeks" or whatever. If they get to Fulacin within 8 weeks with the cargo intact, they cover expenses and make some personal money. If they are late, not so much. But which contracts they pick, the route they take, and so on are up to the players. As long as they a contract and fulfill it, then ship costs are not an issue. The adventures they have on the way are the meat of the campaign. They asked for Leverage, Firefly, and Lara Croft as touchstones. :p

Technically, they are playing an adventure loosely based on "Islands in the Rift". But they were hired at the naval base at Zuflucht to go Acadie to take over for the missing crew and find out what happened. But their employer and the players (and characters) knew that was gonna be a like a year long mission, which is why it pays so much. They started travelling commercial to keep under cover, having adventures in most of the systems they visit on the way. Some just local missions, some related to the fact that they are personally looking for a trafficking ring that had tried to kidnap them, the foiling of which was the opening of the campaign. Then they got to the ship and are basically doing the same thing, just with a ship to get around instead of going commercial.

There's lots of ways to play Traveller. Tailoring your campaign to suit what your players (and you) are interested in is critical. Published stuff can be pretty cool, but it can't know what your table really loves. Move things around, tweak elements, insert extra stuff. Make it yours. I like Murder on Arcturus Station and Nomads of the World Ocean, so I moved those to Serendip and Sansterre, respectively. And then I reworked Nomads so it would be something my players would actually do :D
 
I must be in the minority here but the majority of the groups I have run Traveller for over the years have no interest in being ethically challenged merchants. The ship is just the means to get to the next scenario.
My players often want to be space traders. They almost never want to do space trading. It is just their excuse to going places and having a ship. Hence my abstracted space trucking methodology mentioned above.
 
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