Tracking ships

[MasterGwydion]

Nothing I've read hints at that kind of behavior. If you want to do that in your universe, cool, but you're adding speculation to the discussion, not facts or rules in evidence.

Right, but I am not aware that it is contradicted anywhere either.

Anyone know if this is contradicted anywhere?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Nonetheless, if YOU can predict your destination, someone else can as well.

I definitely agree with this. The method is up for some debate though, as is who in Charted Space would be tracking stuff like this.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Right, but I am not aware that it is contradicted anywhere either.

Anyone know if this is contradicted anywhere?

No rules contradict the use of pineapple pizza as a key element in the construction of repulsors either. It's untethered from the discussion and a red herring.

 

[Arkathan]

are there local gravitational fluctuations that small that have to be filtered out? That is way beyond Our level of science, so who knows. Maybe there is background interference in gravity the same way there is in the EM spectrum.

Are you sure it is millimeters? I got just less than a meter when I did the math.

Cancel out a million from each side. 5/3,090,000 x 3km. 5/3090 x 3 meters when you reduce from km. Then multiple x 2 to get back to diameter, so that would put you up to cm. Pebbles instead of dust.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No rules contradict the use of pineapple pizza as a key element in the construction of repulsors either. It's untethered from the discussion and a red herring.

Using pineapple pizza for anything is an assault of good taste though...

 

[Arkathan]

No rules contradict the use of pineapple pizza as a key element in the construction of repulsors either. It's untethered from the discussion and a red herring.

I prefer to use the simulation of the Italian restaurant.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Using pineapple pizza for anything is an assault of good taste though...

That's why it's a key element in the construction of repulsors.

 

[Arkathan]

kilometers to meters is 1,000 not 1,000,000.

Which is why I only dropped off 3 zeroes in that step.
The initial million was a common multiple that could cancel out.
OK, found my GCE.
You're right. should be 5/3090 x 3000m x 2
I thought I was wrong, but was mistaken.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That's why it's a key element in the construction of repulsors.

Okay! I just made that Canon IMTU! Too funny! Now I know why Vargr make good engineers, they can smell it when the repulsors start to go bad...

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which is why I only dropped off 3 zeroes in that step.
The initial million was a common multiple that could cancel out.

I realized that just after I sent it. Apologies.

 

[Arkathan]

I realized that just after I sent it. Apologies.

Had me running in circles trying to second guess the math in my head, thirty years after I stopped doing math in my head...

 

[Condottiere]

The other issue is the Vastness of the system, you may be able to tell what system they are likely jumping to but there is no way to tell where in the system they were targeting. You could arrive on the opposite side of the system from them and that is to far to tell where they are.

It would be an educated guess.

Energy output is the same, regardless of where the starship exited in the hex.

However, you narrow it down by knowing what's really interesting within that system, possibly, you could even take a protractor, and \draw a straight line from the longitudal axis of the starship, to any of these areas that would intersect.

Or, if you know what the actual objective is of the people onboard.

 

[Condottiere]

IMTU, this is something that space navies practice a lot, that private groups rarely do. The Imperial Navy is, of course, extremely interested in figuring out where reinforcements might have come from or where fleeing ships might be going to, and so have developed some programs. But as GM, I like to keep things interesting and in Real Life, tracking things you can't see is very problematic. They have extremely good programs that can give you a trajectory and general distance traveled based on energy input, but there's a minimum necessary energy to enter jumpspace and I have energy requirements scale logarithmically; so, the difference between Jump-1 and Jump-0 is very small in energy and can be difficult to detect, while the difference in energy between J-3 and J-4 is much higher. But you can at least get an idea of their next target.

However, the Navy then also has a reason to develop counter-technologies; but they can only counter what they can understand. So, IN ships of a certain age and younger always have "jump screen" tech, which fluctuates the emissions to make it look like more energy is being expended in jump, and it does it by a random variable amount so that it's difficult to develop an algorithm that can counter it.

But, for instance, the Consular Navy generally doesn't use tracking technology, as they try to read the minds of the guy giving the jump order or the navigator or the ensign entering the jump information or whatever. They are more interested in developing technologies to counter anti-psionic measures, as that would be more useful in the long run. And everybody has limited resources to use to solve these problems.

You could try casting chaff.

 

[ishldgetoutmore]

You could try casting chaff.

Also a good solution. One thing I took from the Colonial Marines Technical Manual (highly recommended for Traveller referees -- even if it's not Traveller, it's well thought-out after-the-fact science justification for good movies) was decoy ballottes -- basically inflatables that could be deployed to confound long-range sensors, and can be set to deflate just as quickly. I can see timing it right making it look like three or four different ships suddenly appear and then all have different facings/trajectories/etc., complicating any attempts to track the ship.

Did those particles ever get a name? I nominate Sigtrygginos.

Well, that's just silly. I aim for scientific plausibility in my Traveller games! That's just a laughable name!

In my game they're Narckotrons. 'Cause they're narcs.

Okay, speaking seriously, I think in an earlier edition of Traveller they were neutrinos, which are elementary particles that can pass through normal matter and which are expected to be a by-product of fusion (if it works the way current physicists think it will).

 

[Galadrion]

Side thought along the same topic. I need some math help because I don't think that my math is mathing correctly today. A Gravitational Analysis Suite can also automatically detect comets at 0.1 parsecs. An average comet is 6km wide. If an object appeared to be the same size in arcseconds, but 6km diameter one is 3,090,000,000,000km away and the other is 5,000,000km away, how big is the nearer object? I am trying to determine how small of an object can be detected at the start of the longest sensor bracket in the HG rulebook by a GAS.

Can anyone help with the math?

I'm fairly certain that it's a linear correspondence, which would mean that the nearer object would be 1 cm wide, or near enough not to make any appreciable difference.

I suspect, however, that a GAS's sensitivity is more dependent on mass than on cross-section. Which means I don't really have any idea how small an object could give the same relative return over the shorter range.

 

[MonsterX]

Freelance traveller has an old article which addresses the issue of jump signatures: https://freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/jumpimpl.html

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm fairly certain that it's a linear correspondence, which would mean that the nearer object would be 1 cm wide, or near enough not to make any appreciable difference.

I suspect, however, that a GAS's sensitivity is more dependent on mass than on cross-section. Which means I don't really have any idea how small an object could give the same relative return over the shorter range.

So, now I have 3 answers to my question. lolz. 1m, 1cm, and 1mm. hee hee ee

 

[MasterGwydion]

Wait a minute. Since we are detecting gravity waves, how does the inverse square law apply if the automatic detection threshold is 1 parsec? That means a 100-ton ship can be detected automatically at a range of 1 parsec when entering or leaving jumpspace and a comet can be automatically detected at 0.1 parsecs. Since we are discussing minimum distance for automatic detection, how much less powerful of a gravity disturbance is a small comet versus a 100-ton J-1 ship if both are at their minimum automatic detection thresholds? Is the jumpdrive signal 10x more powerful than the comet or is it something else?

 

[Arkathan]

So, now I have 3 answers to my question. lolz. 1m, 1cm, and 1mm. hee hee ee

Well, I initially said measured in mm, not one... 5/3 of 3 actually. But then revised to doubling that back to diameter going to up to a cm.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, I initially said measured in mm, not one... 5/3 of 3 actually. But then revised to doubling that back to diameter going to up to a cm.

I will just accept the answer as, "small, really small" and call it a day. Thanks.