Tower of the Elephant Module Questions

[urdinaran]

... if a toxin is touted as one of the deadliest substances know...it ought to kill more easily.

Yeah, that is how I feel about it. In the REH story, this powder is supposed to take out a full grown lion with one sniff of the stuff. The D20 rules come no where near reflecting this.



One more thing: the term "poison" has been thrown around since 1st edition D&D. This is incorrect when referring to animals/creatures such as spiders, scorpions, snakes, etc.
All these creatures use "venom", not poison. The two things work differently.
A venomous animal usually has stinger, fangs, or whatever that deliver venom from sacs. Whereas a poisonous animal will only poison you if you ingest it in some way; eat it, lick it, etc.

 

[Sutek]

That's why I use the term "toxin" because it can apply to anything not normally inside the body apart from a weapon. (hehe)

 

[sbarrie]

Personally, I tack the "sickened" and "nauseated" conditions onto most toxins in my campaign. Being nauseated isn't as irreversible as dying, but it sure makes players fear spiders and snakes. As they should.

 

[slaughterj]

Personally, I tack the "sickened" and "nauseated" conditions onto most toxins in my campaign. Being nauseated isn't as irreversible as dying, but it sure makes players fear spiders and snakes. As they should.

Those are some good ideas!

 

[urdinaran]

Slaughterj wrote:
<<When I ran the adventure this weekend, the PCs knew about the lions because they had Vanku with them, so they had him fire 4 doses diagonally over the gate to the inner garden to cover a 20' square area just to the side of the path to the front and had thrown meat there to lure the lions. The PCs stayed in the outer garden while the lions came to the meat but got caught in the poison. I told them their heard the lions hacking, and then moving away, so the PCs climbed over and scaled the wall, never encountering the lions. Even though it is virtually impossible for the poison to actually kill the lions (at most 3D6 CON damage after a minute, versus their 15 CON), I figured that most creatures once significantly hurt from poison would crawl away to their den and ride it out.>>

A friend of mine started running TotE recently and the poison issue came up. The above is a nice tactic.

I'm at work so I don't have any books handy, but help me out:

What is the INT score of those Lions? I say this because some of the most deadly venoms tend to be neurotoxins, which effect your brain. Maybe it should be INT damage instead. What do you think?

 

[slaughterj]

Slaughterj wrote:
<<When I ran the adventure this weekend, the PCs knew about the lions because they had Vanku with them, so they had him fire 4 doses diagonally over the gate to the inner garden to cover a 20' square area just to the side of the path to the front and had thrown meat there to lure the lions. The PCs stayed in the outer garden while the lions came to the meat but got caught in the poison. I told them their heard the lions hacking, and then moving away, so the PCs climbed over and scaled the wall, never encountering the lions. Even though it is virtually impossible for the poison to actually kill the lions (at most 3D6 CON damage after a minute, versus their 15 CON), I figured that most creatures once significantly hurt from poison would crawl away to their den and ride it out.>>

A friend of mine started running TotE recently and the poison issue came up. The above is a nice tactic.

I'm at work so I don't have any books handy, but help me out:

What is the INT score of those Lions? I say this because some of the most deadly venoms tend to be neurotoxins, which effect your brain. Maybe it should be INT damage instead. What do you think?

Lions are probably INT 2, like the other big cats in the main book. That seems way too easy though, because why would the poison take down a lion so much easier than a man, even if a neurotoxin...

 

[urdinaran]

Yeah, I know. Yesterday I was pondering the effects that Hemotoxins, Neurotoxins, and other conditions have on the body and how the d20 system does not translate them well at all. Oh well...

 

[Yogah of Yag]

I know nothing about RL poisons, toxins, etc. but should target size and/or target HD be factored in? Since the powder in the story offed the lions instantly, IIRC,

Lion
[stats], 15 [TotE].
Stygian [stats], 126 [STY].
Vendhyan [stats], 149 [RoK].

LIONS, COMPARED

The only difference between the Lion (126, STY) and the Vendhyan Lion (149, RoK) is that the latter has higher DR (3 as opposed to 1).

Now, the lion in TotE has more HD (8d8+24) instead of 5d8+10.
Much higher INIT (+10, not +3).
DR is intermediate (2, instead of 1 or 3).
Damage is listed at 1d5+5 (claw), which may be a typo, and 1d10+2 (bite), a whole die more powerful than the above two lions.
Abilities are the same (Con 15)
In Special Attacks, Rake (1d6+3) is another die up from the 1st 2 lions.

The Problem with Poisons

The obvious solution would be to have the lions' Dex cut out from under them IN ADDITION TO Con Damage.

Green Lotus Fort save DC raised to 30.

Stage1: Target becomes helpless. Dex is nullified (-5 to Defence); -2d6 (7 average) initial Con dam

Stage2: -4d6 (14 average) secondary Con dam


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless

 

[Kargush]

I don't have the adventure, but what's the stats on the poison that make it so weak?

The fact that as written, even max dmg from the poison will never be aqble to kill a character, NPC or creature with 19+ CON. Poisons in D20 suck... I usually use DM fiat on them, having them kill(or atleast drive off) NPCs and creatures, whereas the PCs get the usual coating of lost CON or whatever stat the poison affects.

 

[worldeater]

why does the poison have to damage only one stat?
i would make it damage ALL stats.
what happens when you're poisoned?
you feel weak, you feel sick, you feel sluggish, you can't think, and you're not going to be very charming or persuasive.
also, your body deals with poison by trying to get rid of it, via your mouth, your sweat glands, and commonly via two other orifices. 'saving' against a poison should usually involve spending some time vomiting and/or running to the john. anybody who's ever had alcohol or food poisoning knows what i'm talking about.
of course, in d20 they've tried to come up with a very streamlined approach to something that is fairly complicated. in this case it seems like a better solution is just to assume that anything that inhales the green lotus powder is dead, dead, dead. no rolls necessary. unless you're some kind of magical space alien.

 

[slaughterj]

in this case it seems like a better solution is just to assume that anything that inhales the green lotus powder is dead, dead, dead. no rolls necessary. unless you're some kind of magical space alien.

Then many PCs will go out of their way to get it and use it regularly - not exactly a fun campaign basis.

 

[worldeater]

good thing it's hard to find. i beleive there is a specific passage in the orginal story about just how hard it is to get ahold of. as in, there could be a whole campaign revolving around finding some of this powder. it's not something you can just go to town and buy.
so going out of your way to get it? sure, sounds like a fun hook for scenarios. finding it in massive enough quantities to be able to use it 'regularly'? extremely doubtful. the supposed greatest thief ever spent a long time acquiring a small vial (just enough to kill a few lions).
if the PC's ever did get ahold of more of it, then it'd be a simple matter for the resourceful GM to deprive them of it, or confront them with an enemy or enemies who could not easily be defeated by it.

also, poison is not easy to handle and use safely, as a GM i would require some serious skills in the use of poison and impose a serious risk of poisoning yourself if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[Dpetroc]

Always thought it was ironic that the king of thieves goes on a long adventure to get the lotus powder, then gets whacked by the spider...