Tower of the Elephant Module Questions

[slaughterj]

*If you are a player, you might not want to read this post*

















I have several questions about the Tower of the Elephant module:
1. It mentions 4 Royal Guards, and says 2 *might* be in the basement level if there has been no warning, and says up to all 4 *might* be with Yara if he has been alarmed, but it doesn't appear to say where the other 2 *might* be if there has been no warning/alarm - thoughts?
2. For the various Spiders, it mentions the Poison "damage" in the Special Attack part of the stat block and then it mentions Poison again as an extraordinary ability. For the various "Giant Spiders" the numbers are consistent, but for the Tiny Spiders and the Guardian Spider, the "SA" part lists a different DC and different "damage" effects than the Poison section - so what's the right DC and poison "damage" for these creatures?
3. Maybe I missed it, but it seems the Tower shakes and crumbles after Yara's death, but it seems that if Yag-Kosha built it, then the Rule of Impermance would come into effect when Yag-Kosha was killed - I see nothing about this being somehow "transferred" to Yara, but this seems implied, thoughts?
4. The description of the Heart of the Elephant mentions that there is a save based on the Yaggite's magic attack bonus against the hypnotic suggestion effect, thus it should be Yag-Kosha's Magic Attack of 11 + roll saved against by Yara's Will save +16 + opposing roll. Therefore Yara is likely to save and the PCs would have to get him to touch it, but none of this is addressed, and instead, the module seems to assume that he auto-fails this save if the PCs show up with the bloody Heart - am I correct on this?
5. How is the "lethal" green lotus poison at all worthwhile? It does 1d6 CON damage if the save is failed, then a MINUTE LATER, it does 2d6 CON damage if the save is failed. If the PCs loaded up a 4 dose cloud, and a pair of lions ran through it, they would take the first hit (if they didn't save, which is most likely, as the DC is 24, and their Fort Save is +6) but only take 1D6 CON, going from their 15 CON to 11-12 CON on average, thus losing 1-2hp per Hit Die. Since they have 8HD and 60hp, the poison would do 8 or 16 damage, leaving quite a bit of hp, and then the lions would pounce and inflict substantial damage. Even if the PCs crafted a plan to launch a poison cloud, having the lions rush it, then jump back over and let them suffer the poison a minute later, it still wouldn't kill the lions, and that's probably just hurting the first 2 out of 6! Thoughts?

 

[rgrove0172]

I cant answer the technical questions about the module yet as I havent read it yet but as to the plot points, I can comment from the original story.

If there was no alarm raised I would say the other guards are in the garden outside the tower. At least there were a couple sentries there in the story.

As to the tower crumbling, Yog Kasha was forced to create it as a slave. I always considered its destruction a willful act of his, to lay waste to the product of his torment.

Lastly, if it were my adventure I wouldnt give Yara a chance to succeed. You have to have the dramatic ending afterall, it would ruin the entire story otherwise.

Just my opinion.

 

[slaughterj]

If there was no alarm raised I would say the other guards are in the garden outside the tower. At least there were a couple sentries there in the story.

There are other guards already described as in the garden, so that doesn't address the lack of reference of where the 2 royal guards are at.

As to the tower crumbling, Yog Kasha was forced to create it as a slave. I always considered its destruction a willful act of his, to lay waste to the product of his torment.

If that's the case, e.g., through his death, then the PCs could just kill him and split, and the tower would crumble down and kill Yara in the process, thus no need to confront him.

Lastly, if it were my adventure I wouldnt give Yara a chance to succeed. You have to have the dramatic ending afterall, it would ruin the entire story otherwise.

The problem is, he's a 15th level scholar who can readily slay the 4-6th level adventurers the module is designed for with a spell like agonizing doom or defensive blast.

 

[urdinaran]

As for the Green Lotus Poison...

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense at all. In the Conan story, it killed on the spot; whereas the stats of the poison will not kill the lions quick enough before they maul the party.

I exercised GM powers and had the stuff auto-kill; lucky for me, the party had none of the stuff left afterwards.

 

[warzen]

As to the tower crumbling, Yog Kasha was forced to create it as a slave. I always considered its destruction a willful act of his, to lay waste to the product of his torment.

If that's the case, e.g., through his death, then the PCs could just kill him and split, and the tower would crumble down and kill Yara in the process, thus no need to confront him.

IMHO Yog Kasha is not killed at all by the removal of his heart. The end of the story cleary describes him chasing Yara so the destruction of the tower is just an act of his own will.

W.

 

[rgrove0172]

My thoughts too Warzen, he was freed by the slaying of his tormented body. The sorcery opened a window of vengeance for him.

As to killing him, thats what happened to begin with. He wanted death. he would be free either way but through the confrontation with Yara, he gets his vengeance. His "parting gift".

The story could end without it but lacks the punch. Id heavily encourage my players to do the deed or even, if necessary, entrance them by the will of Yog Kasha so they have to. Otherwise you lose something in the tale. For me and my players, its all about the story.

 

[slaughterj]

As to the tower crumbling, Yog Kasha was forced to create it as a slave. I always considered its destruction a willful act of his, to lay waste to the product of his torment.

If that's the case, e.g., through his death, then the PCs could just kill him and split, and the tower would crumble down and kill Yara in the process, thus no need to confront him.

IMHO Yog Kasha is not killed at all by the removal of his heart. The end of the story cleary describes him chasing Yara so the destruction of the tower is just an act of his own will.

W.

Interesting take on it. Thought it is Yog-Kasha's form inside the gem, which doesn't seem to be "him" as he is in the floor above with his heart cut out, though it could be his "spirit".

 

[slaughterj]

My thoughts too Warzen, he was freed by the slaying of his tormented body. The sorcery opened a window of vengeance for him.

As to killing him, thats what happened to begin with. He wanted death. he would be free either way but through the confrontation with Yara, he gets his vengeance. His "parting gift".

The story could end without it but lacks the punch. Id heavily encourage my players to do the deed or even, if necessary, entrance them by the will of Yog Kasha so they have to. Otherwise you lose something in the tale. For me and my players, its all about the story.

The module specifically suggests that Yog-Kasha would not use force of will, e.g., entrance, to make the characters do the act, which seems to make sense.

Regardless, I ran the adventure this past weekend, and the PCs followed the script, so no problem

 

[slaughterj]

As for the Green Lotus Poison...

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense at all. In the Conan story, it killed on the spot; whereas the stats of the poison will not kill the lions quick enough before they maul the party.

I exercised GM powers and had the stuff auto-kill; lucky for me, the party had none of the stuff left afterwards.

When I ran the adventure this weekend, the PCs knew about the lions because they had Vanku with them, so they had him fire 4 doses diagonally over the gate to the inner garden to cover a 20' square area just to the side of the path to the front and had thrown meat there to lure the lions. The PCs stayed in the outer garden while the lions came to the meat but got caught in the poison. I told them their heard the lions hacking, and then moving away, so the PCs climbed over and scaled the wall, never encountering the lions. Even though it is virtually impossible for the poison to actually kill the lions (at most 3D6 CON damage after a minute, versus their 15 CON), I figured that most creatures once significantly hurt from poison would crawl away to their den and ride it out.

 

[rgrove0172]

The module specifically suggests that Yog-Kasha would not use force of will, e.g., entrance, to make the characters do the act, which seems to make sense.

Sorry, I only just now recieved the module and havent read it yet. I was just going by the story.

 

[slaughterj]

The module specifically suggests that Yog-Kasha would not use force of will, e.g., entrance, to make the characters do the act, which seems to make sense.

Sorry, I only just now recieved the module and havent read it yet. I was just going by the story.

Quite alright, just passing along the info from my reading.

 

[Sutek]

1. Put as many in ther as seems necessary for your party. I think I increased it to 6 even, just to be a real bastard! (lol)

2. Probably a result of ther not being a difinitive monster guidebook (hint hint Darlage!) I'd make the smaller ones more potent, actually, because in nature smaller critters are typically more poisonous to overcome lack of size (true - check out scorpoions).

3. Yeah, well, with Yoga of Yag you're dealing with alien powers and I guess you have to assume that he is "putting himself in the gem" in some way, so he's truly not dead. He also is kept alive by magicks that were stolern from him, so it may also be that by now those powers won't let him slip this plane and defy the Laws of Permanence that way.

4. Yara's greed, though, is the storyline that sort of allows youto override the rules.

5. Think on this: By 4th Level, PCs can have a 19 CON, so it's impossible to die from exposure to one of the deadliest toxins in the known world. Nonsense. I just made the damage roll first, and then added that to the FORT DC, and I figured it should kill an average human in the initial shot so I added an extra d6 to both damage values. That worked.

I reccomend Toxicant from RPG now, if someone else already hasn't, (deadliest $5 I ever spent!) or just com up with your own houserule for poisons. You kinda have to - toxins dont'really work the way they are written.

 

[slaughterj]

5. Think on this: By 4th Level, PCs can have a 19 CON, so it's impossible to die from exposure to one of the deadliest toxins in the known world. Nonsense. I just made the damage roll first, and then added that to the FORT DC, and I figured it should kill an average human in the initial shot so I added an extra d6 to both damage values. That worked.

Can you clarify this?

BTW, one of the reasons poisons aren't but so effective in games (other than the fact that many real poisons won't kill a person, or they will take a while to do it) is because PCs will tend to over-use it if it is so good.

 

[rgrove0172]

BTW, one of the reasons poisons aren't but so effective in games (other than the fact that many real poisons won't kill a person, or they will take a while to do it) is because PCs will tend to over-use it if it is so good.

Personally I think its the GM's responsibility to regulate the use of poisons. Afterall he can make the unavailable anytime he wants to, or claim the batch the players have goes bad, loses its effectiveness etc. I kind of prefer my poisons to be extremely deadly, expecially if thats how they are described in literature - its far more dramatic that way. I still remember those old Poison saving throws from D&D many years ago. Scary stuff but really made you fear anything with poison as a weapon - as it should be.

 

[Foxworthy]

I don't have the adventure, but what's the stats on the poison that make it so weak?

 

[slaughterj]

BTW, one of the reasons poisons aren't but so effective in games (other than the fact that many real poisons won't kill a person, or they will take a while to do it) is because PCs will tend to over-use it if it is so good.

Personally I think its the GM's responsibility to regulate the use of poisons. Afterall he can make the unavailable anytime he wants to, or claim the batch the players have goes bad, loses its effectiveness etc. I kind of prefer my poisons to be extremely deadly, expecially if thats how they are described in literature - its far more dramatic that way. I still remember those old Poison saving throws from D&D many years ago. Scary stuff but really made you fear anything with poison as a weapon - as it should be.

I'm not too much into GM fiat and arbitrariness to deal with the poison availability issue. If it is so problematic for the PCs, it should be for the NPCs as well, but it seems pretty rare that an NPCs' poisoned weapon is actually old stuff that is no longer effective in any game I've played or adventure I've seen - but it could make for some interesting RPG situations

 

[slaughterj]

I don't have the adventure, but what's the stats on the poison that make it so weak?

The poison is the green lotus blossom, whose stats are in the main book. The problem is not with the poison referenced in the book, per se, but rather with poison in d20 in general. This is considered a very deadly poison with a DC24 save (which is tough), but if you fail the first immediate save, you only take 1D6 CON damage, then after another minute, if you fail that secondary save, you take an additional 2D6 CON damage, which will kill a "normal" on average but certainly no lion. Lions have a CON 15, 8 HD, 60 HP, and Fort save +6. Therefore, if you directly encounter the lions and put the cloud of poison about them, they will likely fail and take 1D6 CON damage, thus losing either 8 or 16 HP, leaving them VERY lethal for a whole minute against the PCs, which is well longer than it would take for the poison to run its course (a minute later for 2D6 more CON damage) and still not even kill the lions. The initial CON damage doesn't make them any less effective in combat, it just makes them a little easier to kill, which doesn't seem to match the notion that this is some very lethal poison.

 

[Foxworthy]

I don't have the adventure, but what's the stats on the poison that make it so weak?

The poison is the green lotus blossom, whose stats are in the main book. The problem is not with the poison referenced in the book, per se, but rather with poison in d20 in general. This is considered a very deadly poison with a DC24 save (which is tough), but if you fail the first immediate save, you only take 1D6 CON damage, then after another minute, if you fail that secondary save, you take an additional 2D6 CON damage, which will kill a "normal" on average but certainly no lion. Lions have a CON 15, 8 HD, 60 HP, and Fort save +6. Therefore, if you directly encounter the lions and put the cloud of poison about them, they will likely fail and take 1D6 CON damage, thus losing either 8 or 16 HP, leaving them VERY lethal for a whole minute against the PCs, which is well longer than it would take for the poison to run its course (a minute later for 2D6 more CON damage) and still not even kill the lions. The initial CON damage doesn't make them any less effective in combat, it just makes them a little easier to kill, which doesn't seem to match the notion that this is some very lethal poison.

Yeah that is weak for lions. Average damage of 10-11... which is only like 25 hps too...

That's bad, even upping the intial damage one die doesn't kill the lions on an average damage roll.

I have an idea to make poison a bit more deadly though.

Keep the idea of Intial and Secondary damage but if they fail the roll to save against secondary adamage then the next minute they have to try to save again. This would continue till they either die or make the save. Of course with reduced fort saves saving againsta Con based poison would become really hard.

 

[slaughterj]

I don't have the adventure, but what's the stats on the poison that make it so weak?

The poison is the green lotus blossom, whose stats are in the main book. The problem is not with the poison referenced in the book, per se, but rather with poison in d20 in general. This is considered a very deadly poison with a DC24 save (which is tough), but if you fail the first immediate save, you only take 1D6 CON damage, then after another minute, if you fail that secondary save, you take an additional 2D6 CON damage, which will kill a "normal" on average but certainly no lion. Lions have a CON 15, 8 HD, 60 HP, and Fort save +6. Therefore, if you directly encounter the lions and put the cloud of poison about them, they will likely fail and take 1D6 CON damage, thus losing either 8 or 16 HP, leaving them VERY lethal for a whole minute against the PCs, which is well longer than it would take for the poison to run its course (a minute later for 2D6 more CON damage) and still not even kill the lions. The initial CON damage doesn't make them any less effective in combat, it just makes them a little easier to kill, which doesn't seem to match the notion that this is some very lethal poison.

Yeah that is weak for lions. Average damage of 10-11... which is only like 25 hps too...

That's bad, even upping the intial damage one die doesn't kill the lions on an average damage roll.

I have an idea to make poison a bit more deadly though.

Keep the idea of Intial and Secondary damage but if they fail the roll to save against secondary adamage then the next minute they have to try to save again. This would continue till they either die or make the save. Of course with reduced fort saves saving againsta Con based poison would become really hard.

Interesting idea, but some poisons run their course and shouldn't continually subject their victims to death. It's tough to balance poisons with regard to (a) reality, and (b) game usefulness (i.e., effective, but not so much so that PCs strive hard to get and use it).

 

[Sutek]

5. Think on this: By 4th Level, PCs can have a 19 CON, so it's impossible to die from exposure to one of the deadliest toxins in the known world. Nonsense. I just made the damage roll first, and then added that to the FORT DC, and I figured it should kill an average human in the initial shot so I added an extra d6 to both damage values. That worked.

Can you clarify this?

BTW, one of the reasons poisons aren't but so effective in games (other than the fact that many real poisons won't kill a person, or they will take a while to do it) is because PCs will tend to over-use it if it is so good.

The Green Lotus is indicated as having a 2d6 initial CON damage toxic effect, followed by an additional 1d6 toxic effect one minute later if all saving throws are failed.

Max roll is 18.

The logic that "PCs will over use it if it is so good" can easily be applied to Sneak Attack, Bardiches and juswt about anything else. Make it more expensive, or highly controlled or enforced against, and you create problems for the PCs that prevents then from getting ahold of these things that are "too good" easily.

Green Lotus can only be cultivated and procured in the Far East, and you need a lot to make a single dose. Read up on the Craft skill for more on that.

What the Toxicant supplement does is give you other problems to contend with. Nausea, vomiting, sever cramps, dizziness - these are a lot more common as effects of real poison. I mean, in real life you don't "take damage", but also, in RPGs, that damage doesn't translate to any effect other than "what it takes to kill/incapacitate your character". Granted, the penalties to the initial CON damage will affect the next save roll due to an also reduced FORT save, but if a toxin is touted as one of the deadliest substances know...it ought to kill more easily.