Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
The FFW would be a lot different if the testbed hop drive ship ran for reinforcements when hostilities broke out.
TL-16 Aslan world?
- Thread starter MasterGwydion
- Start date
It could be a key mission for Zhodani allied travellers to disable/destroy such a testbed ship.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
A push as far as Vincennes is too far as a surprise, but a stealthy strike ship is a different story.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Take that date with a large pinch of salt. It is gleaned from T5 and T5 fanon almost canon and could easily be changed by Mongoose. I should have added that caveat in the original post, sorry.
Anyway, we can do what we want in our universe post 1105
I have a strong dislike of the prototypes, experimental etc rules.
To my mind you experiment at TL9 and if successful you can now build a 2 disadvantage jump drive. As you build more and get better understanding of the technology you get the 1 disadvantage version. Once the tech matures you can build the standard version or the one disadvantage budget version.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
That is rather ignoring the canon of the Aslan.
They learned jump drive from Terrans, they made further breakthroughs thanks to discoveries during the Dark Nebula conflict.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Their story was interesting but had a few holes.
The biologicals were infected with a plague that wiped out most of the population, only the synthetics survived. Some of the biolgicals were kept on ice, as was their DNA, one of the things that drives the synthetics is to find a cure.
Fortunately they never discovered the jump drive, so when the Ziru Sirka came sniffing the synthetics for some reason could not reason:
there are alien races out there
those alien races may have a cure
how did those aliens get here.
The synthetics had the tech to launch TL17 STL ships crewed by synthestics, yet for some reason chose not to.
Fast forward to the Third Imperium contact and the meson screens of Imperial vessels allowed for slightly more to be learned, pity the poor scouts never to return.
But once again the synthetics learn that those pesky aliens are still out there, and by now there has been a reality manipulation that allows the system wide detection of jump flash.
Do the synthetics turn their minds to jump research? Do they discover hop as their first FTL drive? Do they build fleets of TL17 STL ships to go and investigate the Third Imperium?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Nothing I read gave a date.
Some high tech worlds never independently discover particular tech. If you go by Marc's explanation of the Annic Nova story, you had an isolated ultra tech world that never thought of jump drive.
The South American cultures were totally capable of constructing axles and wheels, but never thought of the idea independently. They had potter's wheels though.
For that matter, even with the standard tech path, we are told that Jump Drive is developed towards the end of TL9, and if TL4 now takes in the late 19th and early 20th Century, you have a range from US Civil War through to WW1. Telegraph at one end and radio at the other. Steam engine through to diesel. When a particular advance comes in isn't always clear.
The Hop Drive is in the exotic tech section, and is TL17. There is no strong evidence Vincennes developed a working prototype before things fell apart in the Rebellion and especially when Virus hit (and canonically the backlash against robots caused by Virus had a big effect on Vincennes). It does not surprise me that it might have taken until 1900 to develop Hop.
Vincennes having Jump-7, however. That seems much more likely. Refinements of established technology are a lot easier than the whole process of working out how to do a new thing. (Having said that, is the concept of Hop being researched? I have no issue there. The concepts of heavier than air flight were researched well before building a working prototype aeroplane was acheived)
The South American cultures were totally capable of constructing axles and wheels, but never thought of the idea independently. They had potter's wheels though.
For that matter, even with the standard tech path, we are told that Jump Drive is developed towards the end of TL9, and if TL4 now takes in the late 19th and early 20th Century, you have a range from US Civil War through to WW1. Telegraph at one end and radio at the other. Steam engine through to diesel. When a particular advance comes in isn't always clear.
The Hop Drive is in the exotic tech section, and is TL17. There is no strong evidence Vincennes developed a working prototype before things fell apart in the Rebellion and especially when Virus hit (and canonically the backlash against robots caused by Virus had a big effect on Vincennes). It does not surprise me that it might have taken until 1900 to develop Hop.
Vincennes having Jump-7, however. That seems much more likely. Refinements of established technology are a lot easier than the whole process of working out how to do a new thing. (Having said that, is the concept of Hop being researched? I have no issue there. The concepts of heavier than air flight were researched well before building a working prototype aeroplane was acheived)
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Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Early prototype Jump-9? - yes, you'd need a drop tank to even make that work once. maybe work. But even that would be more likely than the Hop. No indication that it was a thing in 1105*.
*Except in a region so far coreward that the Wave has already passed, mentioned in one JTAS only. Or maybe as a relatively primitive Ancient Tech -- TL20 device with Hop-1 +3 Advantages and an antimatter power plant? - except refueling that power plant would be... challenge. Maybe just a nice fusion drive.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
My question would be, if Jump Drive is TL-9, then is your civilization truly TL-12 if they don't have it? One of the ways We determine TL, in-game, is by what technologies they have. Would We be a TL-7 civilization if We never discovered electricity?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Are there alternatives to electromagnetism?
Steam and hydraulics, to a point.
Maybe light and fibre glass?
Steam and hydraulics, to a point.
Maybe light and fibre glass?
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, the civilisation is TL12 without the jump drive, they have every TL12 technology apart from jump drive. The Sabmiqys achieved TL17 and never discovered jump for example.
Sabmiqys - Traveller
Then there are the Kursae...
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, the civilisation is TL12 without the jump drive, they have every TL12 technology apart from jump drive. The Sabmiqys achieved TL17 and never discovered jump for example.
Sabmiqys - Traveller
wiki.travellerrpg.com
Then there are the Kursae...
And the race that built the AI in the Singularity Campaign. It's tech level 18 and likely wasn't the peak of their civilization. The text hints that it is actually a potentially a much higher tech level...
Naalir has spent most of this time hobbled by a ‘lobotomy’ performed on it by the Vilani, whose chance discoveries enabled them to extract a key component from its structure without destroying the machine. This component can best be described as an advanced processing core, a device that removes behavioural restraints and unlocks the ability to make sweeping, almost prophetic analyses. Even after the extraction, Naalir remains a technological force to be reckoned with, a TL18 conscious intelligence that vastly outperforms every other AI in Charted Space.
The trauma of being discovered in deep space after eons of inactivity, being brought back online and recalibrating itself to a new environment left Naalir vulnerable to the predations of the Vilani research team. After the extraction of the processing core, it lost the knowledge that it once had far greater capabilities.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, they have no gravity manipulation either? Most of the technologies of TL 9 through 12 societies require gravity manipulation. Superdense comes in at TL-12 and without gravity manipulation, you can't have superdense. So, what else do you lose by losing even one breakthrough of a given TL? I think this is a case of not thinking stuff through. If you take out a "gateway technology" you lose all of the technologies derived from that missing tech.Yes, the civilisation is TL12 without the jump drive, they have every TL12 technology apart from jump drive. The Sabmiqys achieved TL17 and never discovered jump for example.
Sabmiqys - Traveller
Then there are the Kursae...
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
You can invent gravitics and never invent jump. The Ziru Sirka failed to invent meson technology.
If superdense armour and bonded superdense are now explained as an outgrowth of gravitcs that is another Mongoose change.
T5 explains it best - there are certain technologies that are not guaranteed to be discovered at a TL. Fusion+ is anoither example.
If superdense armour and bonded superdense are now explained as an outgrowth of gravitcs that is another Mongoose change.
T5 explains it best - there are certain technologies that are not guaranteed to be discovered at a TL. Fusion+ is anoither example.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Seems to Me that the only variable is if a society develops gravitics or not. All other advanced technology seems to be descended from that magic technology. Newtonian physics work fine until you encounter strong gravity fields, then Newton breaks down and Einstein picks it up with his more refined equation. Einstein works well up to a certain point and beyond that you need a more refined formula. Without gravitics, most of the higher TL stuff just isn't possible.
Seems the same in Traveller, but the writers do not seem to take into account what happens to other technologies when you remove one link out of the chain. For example. Newton was brilliant, probably more brilliant than Einstein, but you can't use Newtonian Physics to calculate the orbit of Mercury or to use a GPS satellite.
One equation, vastly less important than say, the jump drive equation, and our whole way of live changes. That is not even a complete technology, it is just one step on developing a range of technologies.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
If, and you can take this with a pinch of salt, quantum field theory is correct then everything, with the possible exception of gravity, is explainable as a field (there are a few heretical theories that are now basing the standard model on geometric quantisation but I digress).
electromagnetism, the electron, the quarks, the gluons, the weak force bosons, the higgs - these are all part of the model
gravitics requires an addition to the above
jump requires an addition to the above
real gravity may never be part of the above (no quantum gravity and no graviton)
Traveller also postulates meson technology and nuclear damper technology.
Now meson tech could be based on manipulating quarks and gluons, while damper tech adds W/Z manipulation. My postulation is that the higgs is likely manipulated to pave the way to jump.
Traveller has these breakthroughs, but the TL of a culture is not defined by them.
TL8 gravitics
TL9 jump
TL11 meson
TL12 damper
electromagnetism, the electron, the quarks, the gluons, the weak force bosons, the higgs - these are all part of the model
gravitics requires an addition to the above
jump requires an addition to the above
real gravity may never be part of the above (no quantum gravity and no graviton)
Traveller also postulates meson technology and nuclear damper technology.
Now meson tech could be based on manipulating quarks and gluons, while damper tech adds W/Z manipulation. My postulation is that the higgs is likely manipulated to pave the way to jump.
Traveller has these breakthroughs, but the TL of a culture is not defined by them.
TL8 gravitics
TL9 jump
TL11 meson
TL12 damper
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Who had a higher TL? The Mayans or the Iron-Age Celts? Mayans didn't have forges, the Iron-Age Celts did. They could have build forges. They had the tech to do so, just didn't develop them. Forges were developed from kilns. Mayans fired their pottery at much lower temperatures and therefore never developed the forge which is a requirement of ironworking. Traveller says that they are both the same TL, but without ironworking, many things are not possible, not just the making of swords and armor. Same with technologies like Jump Drives and gravitics.
BTW... Sig, Nice write up. Well explained and thought out.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I tend to think that if you have a working fusion reactor, you're halfway to having gravitics.
