Thoughts on running Heroquests...

[Cleombrotus]

We're at the point in our campaign where some of the characters are starting to go on heroquests, or will be in a couple of weeks. I've played RQ for 23 years but have never played in or run a Heroquest. It's never come up.

I know how I'm going to approach it: I don't want to attempt to describe the Hero Plane myself like I would describe a normal scene. I'm going to run the HQ very mechanically, but I'm going to talk about each station in depth immediately afterwards (how the hero plane should look,cultural significance, implications, how the character feels, de da de da de da) and then get them to write it up in their own subjective form for our website - after all, a heroquest should be subjective? I don't think it's for a mere GM to tell them what they see or what it means.

I was just wondering how everyone else runs their heroquests and could share their ideas and experiences and tell me what worked well, and what didn't. Aside from that, I'm interested in what heroquests people have done, and what rewards they've dished out or received.

As a matter of interest, one character will be questing for a spiritual relationship with Darkness and to unlock the power of the Spirit Warriors of Argan Argar, and the other will be undertaking the Sandals of Darkness HQ. Don't know which version of that I'll be using...

 

[The Greek]

I once ran the Blue Boar heroquest from something available online which worked very well with a little embelishment (this is the only one I have run, most other HQs available seen to be about fighting the most rediculously statted up creatures!). The PCs were cast as helpers in this one because they had managed to do something incredible in the campaign and found them stumbling into someone else's heroquest as his helpers by mistake (and great fun was had by all). They did end up as being the occassionally useful comedy sidekicks to the main protagonist.

http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/blueBoarHQ.html

A version was also available in Tales of the Reaching Moon issue 7.

Blood of Orlanth has a Heroquest in it (at its conclusion, I believe) - I have not read it as I am determined to play the campaign rather than run it. Since the feedback from BOO has been so positive it has taken real effort not to open up and read my copy!

I am working on a Dara Happan based scenario that takes place on the mundane plane but which has definite (and deliberate) simularities in the way it and HeroQuests are constructed (well that's my aim, anyway).

 

[The King]

I think it's hard to perform an Heroquest with RQ rules. In this case it should be more suited to convert all the abilities into HeroQuest stats.

 

[Voriof]

I think it's hard to perform an Heroquest with RQ rules. In this case it should be more suited to convert all the abilities into HeroQuest stats.

Which was, in the end, the big problem Greg had with RQ. Heroquests shouldn't turn characters into superpowered RQ characters - or at least, there should be a lot more to them than that.

Jeff

 

[Utgardloki]

Why is it hard to run a heroquest with RQ rules?

 

[Cleombrotus]

yeah, I remember the old 'super runequest' i remember sitting in the pub listening to the oohs and aahhs when people came back from "Games Day" where they'd spoken to 'Greg' and 'Sandy' and 'Steve'. Happy days.

I think that most people have gotten to the point where they treat the rewards of a heroquest much more modestly. re-useable divine magic for an initiate is about the limit of it in our game at this time. maybe some relevant skill growth.

I don't think that I'm a believer in some of the material that appeared in TOTRM which talked about the actual player gaining some sort of catharsis or enlightenment from playing in a heroquest (runequest/glorantha at its most pompous, i fear). There has to be some sort of material gain, not that that's the purpose of a heroquest, but it is the means by which it is recorded and recognised.

As long as it's for character development, rather than to acquire the grossest level of power possible, then i'm up for a character heroquesting for it. we have one character who has no chance of getting initiated into a cult through standard skill rolls and is going to try to bypass the cult and gain initiation through a heroquest. this seems more appropriate to me and i like it as a concept. it throws open the door for roleplaying opportunities, for there will be priests and other initiates who fear and resent someone who has 'jumped the queue', so to speak. anything like this that doesn't create a monster character sounds fair game for a heroquest to me...

 

[The Greek]

Part of it has to do with the skill level of the HeroQuesters, so that in order to make the adventure as difficult as it should be you start getting really souped up creatures that go OTT with HP, Armour, Skills, etc.

Having said that the Blue Boar is definitely playable and not difficult at all to run, it is just about getting the balance right (which in RQ is easier for the lower to moderately powered characters rather than the true heroes).

Some of the RQ HeroQuests that are online show how easily they can become just a stat-fest rather than a real test of player skill and ingenuity.

Personally I think they are very much writeable (as much as any adventure is), but HeroQuest the game is effectively designed for this sort of high adventure, whilst RuneQuest has traditionally been a more gritty, low powered system.

 

[The King]

While you can always find heroes of the opposite faith on heroquest (like a Troll and Orlanthi hero if you're performing the Hill of gold heroquest, the problem with percentiles is how to simulate a struggle between massive creature (e.g.: the blue dragon) and hero where the sheer strength and damage bonus should suffice to kill anyone, which is true but detrimental to roleplaying.
So may be one should also consider the excellent video game King of the Dragon Pass as a possibility: the hero must already be prepared on the material plane (if the quest needs stealth, then he must perform several deeds implying stealth) and take the correct paths and decisions while heroquesting (implying a more narative approach) because an heroquester must perfectly know a quest even considering the tiniest details.

I can also suggest to read the "Works in Progress" by Greg called Arcane Lore (book on heroquesting and heroquest). Though the stats are for the Heroquest system there are loards on info.

 

[Voriof]

Personally I think they are very much writeable (as much as any adventure is), but HeroQuest the game is effectively designed for this sort of high adventure, whilst RuneQuest has traditionally been a more gritty, low powered system.

Heroquest does not have the great disconnect between personal and community magic that exists in RQ. A perfect example of this would be in the wonderful Melissade's Hand adventure from Sun Dome County. Great adventure but the results of this totally disconnected from the community other than a handwaving 'if this works out well, then everything's happy for the crops'.

Community Support aside, the rituals of HeroQuest are generally there to bring tangible benefits to the community rather than give Jimmy's sword a power-up. RQ just isn't really designed for the kind of things I expect out of a HeroQuest. I can do it, certainly, but I prefer a bit more support from the game-tropes when writing. (I mean, I just started a game of Arthurian Adventure. What gameset did I reach for? Not D&D. I decided to use Pendragon as it has the best fit for what I wanted to accomplish.)



Jeff

 

[soltakss]

Personally, I don't think that HeroQuests are particularly about fighting super-statted opponents. At least the ones I have run haven't been.

It all depends on who your PCs are and what they want to do.

If you are trying to knock Yelm off his throne and create a new Dark Dara Happan Empire then you are going to be messing with Demigods and Gods and you need to be tough to deal with them.

However, if you are leading a bunch of peasants in a revolt against the local Yelmic Overlord then the opponents will be normal people.

If you are performing a Re-enactment Quest then your opponents will be at roughly the same power level as the PCs on the Quest. Of course, it al depends on the particular Quest you are trying to do and the place you are trying to Quest in.

For example, if you know that a troll clan in the Big Rubble has a pair of magical boots that allow the wearer to jump over high walls (relics of the Gerak Kag cult) then you could perform the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest to liberate the boots. The opponents will be the Trolls of the Clan and the reward would be the Boots. The fact that these don't make you invisible in Darkness is pretty irrelevant for this particular Quest. Of course, you might find that the Quest brings in other opponents and causes other problems, but that's pretty standard for HeroQuesting.

So, don't get hung up on the power thing, most HeroQuests are not high-powered.

How do you run a HeroQuest?

First of all, there are different types of HeroQuest. Re-enactment Quests are the simplest as they allow the Questors to perform an already existing HeroQuest and gain predictable rewards. Experimental HeroQuests are more difficult as they require the Questors to do things that the deities didn't do and, as such, are more dangerous and unpredictable. I'm assuming that the Quest is a re-enactment Quest as they are the most common and the simplest to run.

Every HeroQuest begins with a Myth. This Myth is the basis of the Quest and the GM should make the Myth available to anyone on the HeroQuest.

Each HeroQuest consists of a number of Stations, each of which corresponds to part of the Myth. These Stations are normally well-known for commonly performed Quests and the PCs should know what the Stations comprise. This causes a problem because the players will know what to expect, will be able to plan what to do and will have no suprises on the Quest. This can be challenging to players and GMs alike. Players may feel the Quest is boring because they've done it before and GMs may feel constrained because they have to conform to a set series of events.

However, each Station is only a guideline. They can change. The order of Stations can change. Participants on the Quest can change. Penalties and rewards can change. If you do it right, they won't know when a station finishes and a new one starts, although sometimes it is important to know the station thresholds. GMs should mess about with the stations and participants just to confuse the players. Sometimes a GM can include a Station that isn't on the norm al Quest or can leave out a Station, this will really confuse players.

Opponents on a HeroQuest will depend on the Quest and the place, as mentioned before. The GM should work these out beforehand and also decide whether the HeroQuest has alerted them to the attack. Sometimes this happens, sometimes it doesn't. Sneaking in to a troll clan stronghold is difficult enough at the best of times but becomes almost impossible if the Priestess feels herself being sucked on to a HeroQuest.

The GM should ensure that the PCs have a goal that success on the Quest should achieve. There is no point going on a Quest without a set goal, unless the PCs have been sucked onto a Quest against their will. The goal should be stated in advance and the GM should then interpret how the goal would be achieved if the Quest succeeds. A HeroQuestor might do the Humakti Quest for Death to bring back a magical sword, or do the Lightbringers Quest to bring back a slain chieftain, or do the Waha Frees the Herd Beasts Quest to free a captured herd beast, or a Niskis quest to seduce a married woman, or the Sandals of Darkness Quest to gain the Darkwalk divine spell.

The GM should also work out what kind of penalty the PCs might have if the Quest failed. That also depends on the quest, the power level and the opponents. Doing the Sandals of Darkness Quest to gain a pair of magical boots and failing might mean they barely escape with their lives and are hunted by the clan or they were captured and ransomed or captured and eaten or captured and turned into zombie guardians. A Questor trying to ally with a clan may find that he has started a war or that the clan has sided with his enemies.

So, enough of the mechanics. How do you actually run a HeroQuest?

You need to try and make it different from a normal scenario. Enhance the differences, describe how the land is covered in mist, the plains seem blasted or the sky seems dead and dull, even though it is a day in Fireseason. Show how things are different from normal life. Animals and birds will talk to the PCs, their fire magic don't work, they cannot see landmarks, the streets around them have changed.

Encounters will not be random ones (even if you don't use random encounters) but will have a strange feeling to them. Exchanges will be ritualised, even more than normal. So an Orlanthi Initiate meeting a Yelmalian Initiate should still have to do the Wind Lord's Riddling Challenge even though he isn't a Wind Lord. Many encounters will have a certain amount of barganing and exchange of gifts, for that is what happens on HeroQuests. Expect to lose some things and gain others.

Above all, try to keep them on their toes. Introduce strange or weird things. Have a potential enemy be a friend or a potential friend be an enemy. If you have foes from the past then include them in the HeroQuest, but not all the time. Introduce well-known NPCs as participants to scare or delight the PCs. Keep it fresh and interesting at all times.

 

[Cleombrotus]

I can see myself going down the following route.

Discussion as to why the character is going on the heroquest and what they want out of it.
Then a series of stations that define a particular myth each of which will, for want of something better, result in a series of dice rolls, either against skills, stats or our houseruled personality factors.
Then, after each one, a discussion and barter between player and gm about the possible ramifications of succeeded or failed rolls, since each will have an impact on the world.
All game mechanics beyond the most simple will be ignored. I want to hear "I will use this skill/ability/item to achieve 'x' in this particular way for that particular purpose" - which is rather like heroquest from what I understand of it, but I want the results defined in rq terms.

As I said before, I don't see a need to describe a heroquest in the same way i would describe say, a city. I'll leave that to the player afterwards to describe what they imagined they 'saw'. they should have ownership of their heroquest in that respect.

 

[soltakss]

I was just wondering how everyone else runs their heroquests and could share their ideas and experiences and tell me what worked well, and what didn't. Aside from that, I'm interested in what heroquests people have done, and what rewards they've dished out or received.

I've run all the Quests at http://www.soltakss.com/#HeroQuesting and in the sections beneath it. I've also run the Lightbringers Quest, tromping through Hell to bring back a dead chieftain, as a mini-campaign. There have been more that I've used from the web or have written but not written up properly.

When we played RQ2 we generally didn't do the re-enactment quests but saw HeroQuests as raids on the Hero Plane. I started to introduce re-enactments quests in the 80s to mixed results. Some people liked them, others hated them.

What rewards have I given out on HeroQuests? Cult Special Spirit Magic to non-cult members, new Spirit Magic, Reusable Divine Magic to Initiates, Heroic Casting (costs MPs to cast rather than being one-shot until reprayed) to Priests, special abilities (the rough equivalent of Legendary Abilities), cult gifts and geases, magical weapons, magical items, increased Species maximum POW, increased Characteristics, new skills, improved skills, healing of an area of land, blasting an area of land, freeing an imprisoned demigod, making rivers navigable, making an area of land fertile and many, many more.

The sky's the limit when giving out rewards. It all depends on what kind of quest you are doing and what you expect the rewards to be.

What worked well? HeroQuests where the players knew about the myths and knew what they wanted to do.

What worked badly? HeroQuests where the players didn't have a good idea of what they wanted or where they vastly misjudged the rewards they were going to get from the quest.

But, don't take our word for it, try a HeroQuest and see what happens. Let us know if you liked it, if your players liked it and what happened.

 

[soltakss]

I can see myself going down the following route.

Having a plan of attack as a GM is always good. It makes it easier to run the HeroQuest.

Discussion as to why the character is going on the heroquest and what they want out of it.

The most important thing to do. If you don't then the HeroQuest becomes very foggy and difficult to resolve.

Then a series of stations that define a particular myth each of which will, for want of something better, result in a series of dice rolls, either against skills, stats or our houseruled personality factors.

First of all, the Myth defines the Stations, not the other way around. First comes the Myth, then come the Stations. Except for an Experimental Quest on the God Plane where the Stations can create the Myth.

Be careful with Personality Traits. They can be good if used sparingly but if you use them at each and every turn then they become very mechanical and the players will feel that they don't have any choices in the Quest. Sure, make them try a Bravery roll when they are going into the deep cave containing a dragon, but don't make them try rolls to see if they fall in love with every maiden they meet or want to run away from every opponent they see. Only use them when it is vital to the HeroQuest.

Try not to make a HeroQuest a series of rolls. The HeroQuest game is guilty of that to a certain extent because it describes a Station and tells you a list of abilities needed to be rolled to succeed in the Station. The danger is that makes it into a series of rolls and nothing else, which is absolutely not what a HeroQuest is about.

Also, don't forget that a Station is a mini-HeroQuest in itself and can be more than a simple skill resolution. Some PCs can get rewards or penalties on specific stations regardless of whether the overall heroQuest succeeds or fails.

Above all, a Station is an encounter or a meeting of two or more parties and should be treated as such. Sure, it is al ritualised and certain actions are normally required, but don't make it too formulaic and please don't just treat it as a series of dice rolls.

Then, after each one, a discussion and barter between player and gm about the possible ramifications of succeeded or failed rolls, since each will have an impact on the world.

Yes and no. That is a very mechanical way of doing a HeroQuest (which is not to say it's a wrong way). You do a Station and then in the Book-Keeping phase you work out what the Station meant and what happened.

I'd do it in a more fluid and less rigid way, personally. If you take Gerak Kag's Boots from his idol and take it home then what has happened? First, you have a pair of magical boots that allow you to jump your STR in metres upwards or STRx2 in metres horizontally. Yippee! But, then you go back to your clan and gift the boots to your clan ancestor, putting the boots on his idol. You lose a pair of magical boots, but your clan ancestor gains the Jump spell and the troll clan's ancestor loses the ability to teach the Jump spell. If you took the Boots from Gerak Kag's Great Temple in the Rubble then all his worshippers lose the ability to teach Jump.

All game mechanics beyond the most simple will be ignored. I want to hear "I will use this skill/ability/item to achieve 'x' in this particular way for that particular purpose" - which is rather like heroquest from what I understand of it, but I want the results defined in rq terms.

Once again, this is a very mechanical and dry way of doing a HeroQuest. It may well work, there's no reason why it won't. But, I like events and actions to flow from the myth and from the story. Sure, use skills and spells to do things, but don't do a "If I use Fast talk I can slip around the guard to allow me to steal the sword hanging on the peg and thus get reusable Truesword". Instead say "I'll tell the guard that I don't believe that he is guarding a treasure, he isn't important enough to do so and looks like dog droppings, then when he lets me in I'll distract him by shouting 'Look Behind You!!!' and grabbing the sword while his back is turned." So, you narrate the events, then make a couple of Fast Talk rolls using whatever magic you have to back it up.

Can you see the difference? Maybe it's just me being too picky.

As I said before, I don't see a need to describe a heroquest in the same way i would describe say, a city. I'll leave that to the player afterwards to describe what they imagined they 'saw'. they should have ownership of their heroquest in that respect.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd try and emphasise the parts that are different. It adds flavour to the Quest and makes it different to a normal scenario.

Sure, ask them what they thought of it and how they imagined it, but do it after the Quest has finished or let them jot ideas down during the Quest.

 

[Cleombrotus]

cheers simon, i'll be using a lot of these guidelines.

i think that i must be one of the few GM's who see heroquests as almost a bookeeping exercise, rather than the very point of glorantha. at this particular point in our game these are individual heroquests, and the characters involved will rejoin the main campaign having undergone some kind of ritual trial that will be visibly apparent to all the characters who knew them before.

That's why I want to let them describe it rather than me telling them what happened. There's also a part of me that doesn't really like the hero plane as it's described, i.e a hyperreal version of material glorantha. having built up my expectations over so many years, i guess i feel a little underwhelmed by it. However, I can't pretend to offer a coherent or playable alternative...

I almost feel like opting for a Shakespearean, "Methought I saw..." waking dream, kind of thing from which a character emerges changed in some fundamental way. It's a bit of a cop out, but then I have never personally been a big fan of the move from the material to the spiritual that glorantha has undergone.

 

[soltakss]

I think that most people have gotten to the point where they treat the rewards of a heroquest much more modestly. re-useable divine magic for an initiate is about the limit of it in our game at this time. maybe some relevant skill growth.

It depends on the Quest. That should be Rule Number One for all HeroQuesting and all discussions of HeroQuesting. "It depends on the Quest".

If the heroquest is entirely about personal gain then a resuable divine spell or a magical weapon is a reasonable gain. But, if you are doing the quest for a cult or a community then you will want other rewards for the quest.

I don't think that I'm a believer in some of the material that appeared in TOTRM which talked about the actual player gaining some sort of catharsis or enlightenment from playing in a heroquest (runequest/glorantha at its most pompous, i fear).

If I want a religious expereince, I'll go to Church or to the Mormon Temple. That's where I've had them before.

I wouldn't get, or expect to get, a religious experience from playing a roleplaying game.

There has to be some sort of material gain, not that that's the purpose of a heroquest, but it is the means by which it is recorded and recognised.

Nope, the purpose of a HeroQuest is to gain a tangible reward. I suppose technically you could say the purpose of a HeroQuest is to relive/strengthen the myth from an in-world, huggy-feely fashion, but you do that in Sacred Time and Temple Ceremonies that are not normally played out. You do a HeroQuest to get a reward.

As long as it's for character development, rather than to acquire the grossest level of power possible, then i'm up for a character heroquesting for it. we have one character who has no chance of getting initiated into a cult through standard skill rolls and is going to try to bypass the cult and gain initiation through a heroquest. this seems more appropriate to me and i like it as a concept. it throws open the door for roleplaying opportunities, for there will be priests and other initiates who fear and resent someone who has 'jumped the queue', so to speak. anything like this that doesn't create a monster character sounds fair game for a heroquest to me...

That's a good reason to do a Quest. You are proving yourself worthy of cult membership and are opposing the evil religious network who are trying to keep you from your rightful worship. They won't like it, though, and will oppose you to their fullest ability, so you might meet a local Priest on the Quest who will try his best to stop you from completing the Quest.

As a matter of interest, stopping someone on a quest does not always involve combat. Imagine a Yelornan on a Unicorn Quest. She meets a young man lying badly injured on the road and feels compelled to stop and heal him. They travel for a while together and he helps her past several of the obstacles. Eventually, after several nights together, he ever so gently seduces her and takes her virginity. Bang goes that Quest as she will be unable to get her Unicorn.

 

[Cleombrotus]

you might meet a local Priest on the Quest who will try his best to stop you from completing the Quest

like this idea a lot, and it really fits in with the character's motivation. anything which paints glorantha in shades of grey is alright by me.

Nope, the purpose of a HeroQuest is to gain a tangible reward

when i say 'material gain', i'm referring to a material change to a character sheet gained from the heroquest whatever shape or form that may take, which i think is the same as what you are saying.

 

[The King]

What a great explanation soltakss!
I think there is nothing to add but perhaps that the knowledge of a quest and its surrounding is very important to heroquesters.

One other thing that is potentially interesting to roleplay is when foes perform an heroquest to steal something from your clan (that is where the PCs are in the role of reactors).

 

[Cleombrotus]

when foes perform an heroquest

i really like this idea too. our game recently used the assassination of the Pharoah as a backdrop.

although we weren't directly involved, the sense that the lunars were using heroquests for such things brought a real sense of paranoia to the players, most of whom didn't really know what was going on.

 

[Cleombrotus]

And as I re-read it, Simon, thank you for the length of your replies. Are you a hyper-typer or was that a cut and paste? :lol:

There, you have reduced me to emoticons...remember, it's laughing so you don't have to...

 

[soltakss]

Hyper-Typer, definitely.