Those pesky Minbari

[Lawdog1700]

Wulf, it is supposed to be fun. The Minbari are no fun. It is not a simulation...the show is not real. The game doesn't seem to represent the canon very well on many points. Lets face it...we never saw a Sharlin face an Omega...frankly, the Omega may have been a fair fight. So at this point, the game has been turned over to people who think they know the Bab 5 universe. I think that's a good thing.

But we really don't know much of anything about the ships of Bab 5. We just don't. A couple of battles, most of which were pretty general and not too specific about the ships, are all we have.

I'm convinced that if the EA had stayed and fought when Delenn showed up after the attempt to re-take the Bab 5 after it declared independence, that they would have won. No way could Delenn win that fight against those Omegas. Of course, there's no way to really know..because it is a TV show.

But the fact is if you want to sell a game, you better make it fun. It is not fun to play the "I win everytime" Minbari. Hey...let the Sharlin win every time, but just make it so that it is equal to another War level ship. Or...if you are unwilling to do that...then make it a higher PL than War...or make it cost multiple War points.

I am of the opinion that the Ancients need to be waaaaay more powerful. I would love to fight against the real Shadows from the show (deadly and terrifying). But lets make one cost say 4 or 5 War points. Then we can have the Bab 5 flavor and a good game at the same time.

 

[Target]

Played Mimbari 4 times at raid level, 2 with Centauri, 1 narn and 1 with EA.
Centauri smashed them in first game, Mimbari took 1 Sharlin and 1 Teshlan.
Centauri had 2 Corvans, Flight of Rutarians, Tertius and 1 prefect and 1 Elutarian. Scouts made 1 roll in 4 turns. Crippled Corvan rammed Sharlin. Teshlan was vapourised in 1st Turn.
2nd game much closer but Mimbari went down.
Narn just won. Went in with G Toc's and a Couple of Sho Kar's. Got some weapon crits on the mimbari and eventually got them.
EA just lost but had their chances but generally the Omega let them down with rubbish rolling on the Las Cannon and Nova missed spectacturly in Concert FP broadside with AP beam on the Sharlin which would won the game. Delphi was using a planet and moon to hide from Sharlin. Was a close game. EA had 1 Omega, 1 nova, 1 delphi and 2 Olympus's.
The Mimbari player also had bad luck as well but the dice has no friends except for a crippled Corvan.

 

[Locutus9956]

But we really don't know much of anything about the ships of Bab 5. We just don't. A couple of battles, most of which were pretty general and not too specific about the ships, are all we have.

I'm convinced that if the EA had stayed and fought when Delenn showed up after the attempt to re-take the Bab 5 after it declared independence, that they would have won. No way could Delenn win that fight against those Omegas. Of course, there's no way to really know..because it is a TV show

:shock: Delenn showed up with 1 whitestar (which we SEE going head to head with Omega's later on in the series and doing ok) but also with several Sharlins facing 2 or 3 Omegas and a couple of support ships. Now I know its only a TV show and you cant say for abosulte certain how powerful x y or z is but what anyone should be able to see from the show is that Warships are vastly superior to any earth ship. No the EA didnt have Omegas during the war but you cannot seriously suggest that they can close a 7-8 hundred year tech gap in the 10 years since, even with help from the Narns. If the EA had stayed and fought they would have been masacred, no questions.

As for saying noone likes to play the 'always wins' minbari I just dont believe that's true (the always wins part that is ) I have played them and against them and in most cases it comes down to who plays a better game (of course luck plays a part as it does in ANY wargame). And personally I think the Sharlin IS pretty much equivalent to most of the other War Ships. Try it vs an Octurion or a Dag Kar for example. One passed stealth roll and youre in deep trouble.

I agree with you on the First Ones though, whilst you can win with them as is they just dont 'feel' powerful enough. Give me one Shadow Cruiser to face off against a War level fleet and have an even chance of winning THEN it will feel right (you could allow the other player to buy telepaths too if you made better shadows, say 1 Raid point for P4, 1 Battle for a P8 and one War for a P12, with you having to roll under the P rating on 3d6 to 'jam' the shadow ship (maybe make it a 2d6 roll at less than 10") (if you jam the ship successfully it would be unable to act for the rest of the turn (it would hold positon and be unable to fire, phase out etc))

 

[lastbesthope]

I'm convinced that if the EA had stayed and fought when Delenn showed up after the attempt to re-take the Bab 5 after it declared independence, that they would have won. No way could Delenn win that fight against those Omegas. Of course, there's no way to really know..because it is a TV show.

No way, the power of plot would have meant that the EA had to lose that fight.

#As for Delenn's fleet Locutus, 1 WS, and 3 Minbari vessels from what I remember. They may all have been Sharlins, I never hanfg around to check :lol:

LBH

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Wulf, it is supposed to be fun. The Minbari are no fun.

To you, you mean. Others clearly have no such problem. What you mean is "I find the Minbari player wins too easily, and find it no challenge". Well, simple. Find a better opponent for the Minbari.

It is not a simulation...the show is not real.

Simulations do not always have to simulate reality, you can simulate anything you can refer to for example.

Wulf

 

[Locutus9956]

#As for Delenn's fleet Locutus, 1 WS, and 3 Minbari vessels from what I remember. They may all have been Sharlins, I never hanfg around to check :lol:

A wise decision

For the record they WERE all Sharlins (in fact to my knowledge you only ever see any other class of Minbari ship (not counting fighters and flyers etc) in War Without End (part 2) when right at the end you see a couple of War Frigates (Same hull as Tinashis but one would assume less advanced as that was 1000 years ago). Oh and that trasport thing you see near the start of In the Begining. But for the rest of all the series Im pretty certain the only Minbari capital ships you ever see are Sharlins (or at least Sharlin Hulls they could be varients for all the difference it would make)

 

[Tal Hawkins]

As a side note we cannot say who would have won the EA or the Minbari fleet brought in to protect Babylon5.

Clark would have not wanted a war with the Minbari while still consolidating at home and I am sure the Captains of those ships had strict orders to retreat if forced to engage ships from any of the major races.

Also just to clear it up since I saw the episode just last week there is a bit of confusion in that battle. Babylon 5 said 4 jump points were opening right on top of the station. We see the Whitestar appear and we see some Sharlin. Later we see that there are 4 Sharlin at the station. One can only assume that the Whitestar came in using the Jump Point of one of the Sharlin. This would make sense if they wanted to keep secret that the WS can create its own Jump Point for as long as possible.


BTW, I watched the espisode where they tested telepaths against the Shadows and noticed something. Even though the Shadows can just merge into realspace they still open Jump points of some sort. Lennier was able to pick up those jump points and tell Sheridan about them a moment or two before the Shadow Ships actually appeared.

 

[frobisher]

Also just to clear it up since I saw the episode just last week there is a bit of confusion in that battle. Babylon 5 said 4 jump points were opening right on top of the station. We see the Whitestar appear and we see some Sharlin. Later we see that there are 4 Sharlin at the station. One can only assume that the Whitestar came in using the Jump Point of one of the Sharlin. This would make sense if they wanted to keep secret that the WS can create its own Jump Point for as long as possible.

Except what happened in the episode is that 3 Sharlins and the Whitestar jumped in (you see it do it...). The fact there are four there later points to a later arrival...

BTW, I watched the espisode where they tested telepaths against the Shadows and noticed something. Even though the Shadows can just merge into realspace they still open Jump points of some sort. Lennier was able to pick up those jump points and tell Sheridan about them a moment or two before the Shadow Ships actually appeared.

He doesn't call them jump points, but "disturbance" ISTR...

 

[netfrost]

Except what happened in the episode is that 3 Sharlins and the Whitestar jumped in (you see it do it...). The fact there are four there later points to a later arrival...

Funny that, I was actually watching that episode last night

 

[Rorschach]

Better it should die gracefully than the rotting corpse stagger on under the power of munchkins and point whores.

Wow...that's the first time since I started wargaming in 1980 that I've been referred to as such, indirectly or not.

The gaming world isn't and needn't be so black and white, Wulf.

Play balance and "historical" accuracy are so NOT mutually exclusive, its hard for me to see why you feel they are. An individual play group can always break a list's balance, but it's much harder to fix it. Theoretically, that's part of what we pay the cost of the game for.
It's quite possible to have every fleet have a different and unique flavor, while no list is substantially stronger or weaker than the other. Instead, the strengths and weaknesses should manifest in play styles that flow along lines of the races' backgrounds.

All we're saying is, we don't see that, after repeated games, with diferent levels of players running various sides. And we'll have difficulty selling any news players on the virtues of the game, let alone mustering our own continued interest.

I suppose we can quote battle report anecdotes at each other til we're blue in the face, and still not change each other's minds. But hey, as you've said, at least we argued our own POV, and the Mongoose Powers-That-Be can decide how to measure it from there.

-D

 

[Tal Hawkins]

Also just to clear it up since I saw the episode just last week there is a bit of confusion in that battle. Babylon 5 said 4 jump points were opening right on top of the station. We see the Whitestar appear and we see some Sharlin. Later we see that there are 4 Sharlin at the station. One can only assume that the Whitestar came in using the Jump Point of one of the Sharlin. This would make sense if they wanted to keep secret that the WS can create its own Jump Point for as long as possible.

Except what happened in the episode is that 3 Sharlins and the Whitestar jumped in (you see it do it...). The fact there are four there later points to a later arrival...

BTW, I watched the espisode where they tested telepaths against the Shadows and noticed something. Even though the Shadows can just merge into realspace they still open Jump points of some sort. Lennier was able to pick up those jump points and tell Sheridan about them a moment or two before the Shadow Ships actually appeared.

He doesn't call them jump points, but "disturbance" ISTR...

I am pretty sure he calls them jumppoints since Sheridan immedialty asks if it is the Sharlin jumping in to help.

 

[hacksaaw]

but just make it so that it is equal to another War level ship.

what is interesting about the PL levels is that it shows what each race would bring to the dance at that level of commitment. This SHOULD not be equal or tweaked for balance.

A minbari war fleet had no problem at all in waltzing into earth orbit and smashing everything the EA could put in its way. If you dont have this reflected in the game then you might as well call it stellar twitwars because there is really no reason to chose this game over the alternatives as it is nolonger bab-5.

Thats why if you want tournaments, then have Mongoose establish tournament fleets for the various races. something that will result in some sort of balance, and also have the huge advantage of taking away the search for minmaxing fleet choice. The skill in playing the various fleets will then be more important than picking out some unbeatable combination.

otherwise the PL system is as i said before, a nice reflection of what a race might actually bring to a certain level of engagement.

instead of the utterly ridiculous road SFB has taken where every ship of a class is supposed to be able to duel every other race's ship of the same class with a reasonable chance.

Dont destroy the whole point of having a babylon 5 license. instead look for ways to find a balanced game within the canon.

and a tournament scene is not a prerequisite for a game to survive. running participation scenarios at conventions would work, and draw in the fans of the show.

 

[Xorrandor]

what is interesting about the PL levels is that it shows what each race would bring to the dance at that level of commitment. This SHOULD not be equal or tweaked for balance.

Except that the Minbari appear to use Sharlins for commerce raiding, for patrols, for massive attacks; really for just about everything in the show. I think it's pretty clear that the Minbari don't consider anything in the show a War, until the Grey Council is broken, and even then there is still dissent. What are all those Sharlins doing running around out of mothballs?

A minbari war fleet had no problem at all in waltzing into earth orbit and smashing everything the EA could put in its way. If you dont have this reflected in the game then you might as well call it stellar twitwars because there is really no reason to chose this game over the alternatives as it is nolonger bab-5.

And if you give the Minbari 20 War points, and the EA 10 Battle points, does that not simulate the Battle of the Line equally well? Which part makes it stellar twitwars: using 20 vs. 10 points, or playing War points against Battle points?

Thats why if you want tournaments, then have Mongoose establish tournament fleets for the various races.

Why can't the PL lists be the tournament lists? That's what a great many people thought we were buying when we picked up the product, after all.

and a tournament scene is not a prerequisite for a game to survive.

Prerequisite? No. But balanced point lists cannot hurt anyone who wants to make asymmetrical scenarios. Either they ignore the point lists, or they use it as a basis for "how unbalanced" the scenario is. Unbalanced point lists kill the tournament players, and don't really make scenario builders happier: the lists can't even be used as a starting point for setting the challenge level of an asymmetric game, since they might not be unbalanced the "correct" amount. I mean, you might think a Shadow cruiser can take out 4 Omegas, where I think it can take out 6; it never happens in the show, so how do we know who's right? If Mongoose gives the Shadow stats such that it can beat 10 Omegas, are we both just wrong?

Bottom line: Balanced point lists can be easily unbalanced for roleplayers. Unbalanced point lists cannot be easily balanced for tournament players. This isn't a question of balancing one group against another, it's a case of pissing off one group for no gain.

 

[lastbesthope]

Also just to clear it up since I saw the episode just last week there is a bit of confusion in that battle. Babylon 5 said 4 jump points were opening right on top of the station. We see the Whitestar appear and we see some Sharlin. Later we see that there are 4 Sharlin at the station. One can only assume that the Whitestar came in using the Jump Point of one of the Sharlin. This would make sense if they wanted to keep secret that the WS can create its own Jump Point for as long as possible.

Corwin says "Jumppoints", 4 of them, and we clearly see the White Star come out of a JP, though it could have used a Sharlin's JP the fact that 4 JPs were opened implies otherwise. As we never see more than 3 Sharlins in the wide shots.

And Pauly, in case you're watching this thread, the second wave of EA ships seems to be 2 Omegas and a Hyperion. Re our earlier conversation.

LBH

 

[Rorschach]

And Pauly, in case you're watching this thread, the second wave of EA ships seems to be 2 Omegas and a Hyperion. Re our earlier conversation.

Oh yeah - they could've been pasted by a single Sharlin, let alone 4. Smart withdrawal, even if Delenn hadn't been so badass.

 

[Rorschach]

A minbari war fleet had no problem at all in waltzing into earth orbit and smashing everything the EA could put in its way. If you dont have this reflected in the game then you might as well call it stellar twitwars because there is really no reason to chose this game over the alternatives as it is nolonger bab-5.

Soooo...your logic is that Minbari *should* always win, because that's what they did. And anything else isn't B-5?
That isn't a game, that's a fan-w***. It's like the Cowboys and Indians games I played as a kid - Indians always lose because that's what happens in the movies. And of course, the unpopular kids get chosen to be the Indians. It only gets fun when you can make it a level playing field. (The movie ADDAMS FAMILY VALUES comes to mind...)

Also, this notion of "Level of commitment" is a new one on me. In war you commit what you THINK you need to win a battle, or at least as much as you have available. You don't sit around deciding if this is a mere skirmish, or an all out full assault, and I can only bring so much accordingly. If I KNOW my enemy will defeat me if I only bring X amount, then I try to bring X times two.
Now for a GAME, ideally both players are there for a contest, not a historical recreation. Why such heartburn and cries of heresy over figuring out how many Omegas it really does take to get to the heart of a Minbari tootsie pop?

So, for those who see the Minbari routinely wipe the table week after week and feel it is Just and Right, how do you decide amongst your friends who gets to be in the barrel each time?

In many ways, this is starting to smell like an SCA debate over what's "Period" or not.... :wink:

 

[lastbesthope]

Soooo...your logic is that Minbari *should* always win, because that's what they did. And anything else isn't B-5?
That isn't a game, that's a fan-EDITED.

Mind the language son, this is a family forum!

LBH

 

[Pauly_D]

Also just to clear it up since I saw the episode just last week there is a bit of confusion in that battle. Babylon 5 said 4 jump points were opening right on top of the station. We see the Whitestar appear and we see some Sharlin. Later we see that there are 4 Sharlin at the station. One can only assume that the Whitestar came in using the Jump Point of one of the Sharlin. This would make sense if they wanted to keep secret that the WS can create its own Jump Point for as long as possible.

Corwin says "Jumppoints", 4 of them, and we clearly see the White Star come out of a JP, though it could have used a Sharlin's JP the fact that 4 JPs were opened implies otherwise. As we never see more than 3 Sharlins in the wide shots.

And Pauly, in case you're watching this thread, the second wave of EA ships seems to be 2 Omegas and a Hyperion. Re our earlier conversation.

LBH

ok so 3 Sharlins and 1 White Star vs 2 Omegas and 1 Hyperion
THAT IS WHY MINBARI KICK ASS EVERY TIME IN THE SHOW
they always outnumber and with better ships
So in terms of acta that is 13 Raid level points against 5 Raid points
no wonder they turned and ran that is no way in hell a fair fight
the question is what would have happened if it was 5 Omegas and 3 Hyperions against those 3 Sharlins and a White Star, according to the ACTA pl levels that would have been a fair fight, and we never know because we never see an Omega vs Sharlin fight, so then you cant say that Minbari should always totally dominate because we only saw them over 10 yrs previously to when B5 is set

 

[Locutus9956]

I am pretty sure he calls them jumppoints since Sheridan immedialty asks if it is the Sharlin jumping in to help.

Lenier says: "Im picking up a disturbance in local space, READS LIKE a jump point forming"

That may not be 100% word perfect but deffinitely only says the scanners read it as a jump point forming not that it actually is one (makes sense really since a jump point is just a big burst from hyperspace into realspace, even the whitestars sensors probably arent advanced enough to tell the difference between one or the other)

 

[Nomad]

Against my better judgement, here is a cautionary tale.

I was involved in what is now rather gracelessly termed 'Ultra Modern', i.e. present day, wargaming from the late - 70's to the mid - 80's.
I then became more interested in ancients and SFB.

In the wake of Gulf War One in 1991 there was a surge in interest in the 'Ultra Modern' period, with many armies being bought and games played, largely US or Brits vs Republican Guard.

A year later the period was dead, and very many of those armies were on sale for a song at conventions.

Reason? With any halfway realistic set of rules, the Iraqis lost. Every time.
I'm sure I don't need to patronise anybody by spelling out the reasons.
Certainly, players could have played more balanced games pitting the Iraqis against less well equipped French, Saudi or, say, Qatari forces, maybe some did. I've never met any of them, though.

But there are lots of other games and periods out there, and most voted with their feet (and wallets).

For the Iraqis to loose entire battalions of tanks to opponents they could not even see was entirely historical. However, it did not make for a game (or simulation) worth playing, buying or keeping.

I think it may be worth keeping in mind the very real suffering and dying in and around Kuwait in 1991, and since. And that Babylon 5, however outstanding, is not holy scripture, it was just an above average TV show.
Just like this game, a form of entertainment.