Those pesky Minbari

[B_Steele]

In my GenCon Tourney, my first place was a Drazi player (who are "supposed" to be weak vs. Stealth by other-player complaints, not the player of said fleet - he was a right good man) who played and defeated not one, but TWO Minbari players.

The fleets on paper look scary, and dice can attest to it...but alot can be chalked up to superior tactics. Just wait until the Earth/Minbari War book...there are a lot of scenarios that people are going to scream about, but I can tell you for fact...they all can go 50/50 in playtest.

I stand between the candle and the...OUCH! Stood between too close!

Bry

 

[LoneStranger]

Drazi player takes first at GenCon? Sounds like tamcoan and yeah, he has insanely lucky dice. I have no idea how he does it honestly.

 

[Dywnarc]

The comment I have to make about "superior tactics" overcoming Minbari, is that the Minbari players can have good tactics too!

I agree that a so so player with Moinbari will get beaten by a better player using a fleet well, but this don;t mean that the Minbari are fine! What happens when the Minbari players are good tacticians too? They have the same tactics available too them.

Ont hing that does interst me is that Minbari players in tournes tend to bring the heavies. I have more success with Minabri mixed fleets, lots of Tigara's and Tigana varients.

I think 5 Tigara's/Tigana's are a better fleet then a Sharlin and a buddy

 

[homerun]

I agree with you that minbari players can be good tacticians too.
I especially am not saying that things are fine but like this thread has said it could be its not just the minbari. A lot of this thread is oriented toward EA which is why I think playtesting and looking at things from the EA perspective is helpful. Definitely as things will mature and hopefully solutions will be made whether that is rules clarification, changes, different tactics. Its not necessarily about superior tactics but different ones. If minbari use lots of tigaras it definitely adjusts their tactics and that means the other player has to. It doesn't prove the minbari are fine but it doesn't prove they are super broken either (not saying they won't change as tiem goes on). I think there needs to be some focus on the minbari to help with the problems people are having and continue to get to the root of it. This could be alot of saying. I think people aren't trying to say anti-minbari guys don't know how to play so who cares. We generally want to help but we believe things can be done without having to completely change them. (we don't need a minbari have been nerfed thread).

As for better tacticians it depends on circumstances which is why the emphasis for some is competitve games. If both players are good and its a competitive game most of the time then thats what we want. There are simply situations where even with equal tactics one guy will dominate another it happens. I am just saying that its not necessarily indicative if good players usually win with minbari it just doesn't necessarily tell us minbari are broke. However there are some who are saying that newbies with bad tactics are blowing people out of the sky despite having good tactics. Thats where I see we need to focus on. but it is instructive to know its not always "a minbari appear game over" scenario. Either way its a small sample size so lets see what happens as everyone continues to pull their talents together and gives us more info. It would be great to here how you counter anti-minbari tactics. That way players can recognize them and perhaps counter them. I think what you are saying is escalation along with adaption of tactics comes into play. WHich I agree. But are you saying that you think that your tigara fleet is unbalancing? Another player I know also regards a mixed minbari fleet very dangerous (short and long range firepower). It would be intereting to hear what you have found.

Sorry to say so much, your comments ignited a lot of ideas so I decided to comment on them. I think you touched on good points. Thanks.

The comment I have to make about "superior tactics" overcoming Minbari, is that the Minbari players can have good tactics too!

I agree that a so so player with Moinbari will get beaten by a better player using a fleet well, but this don;t mean that the Minbari are fine! What happens when the Minbari players are good tacticians too? They have the same tactics available too them.

Ont hing that does interst me is that Minbari players in tournes tend to bring the heavies. I have more success with Minabri mixed fleets, lots of Tigara's and Tigana varients.

I think 5 Tigara's/Tigana's are a better fleet then a Sharlin and a buddy

 

[Pauly_D]

I think 5 Tigara's/Tigana's are a better fleet then a Sharlin and a buddy

i think that with Minbari fleets only taking 2 ships makes it easier for their opponents, i played against 1 Neshatan and 1 Tigara with Centauri and destroyed them both by turn 4, all the damage that was done to me was a badly damaged Primus, it wasnt even down to threshold

 

[Tal Hawkins]

I think 5 Tigara's/Tigana's are a better fleet then a Sharlin and a buddy

i think that with Minbari fleets only taking 2 ships makes it easier for their opponents, i played against 1 Neshatan and 1 Tigara with Centauri and destroyed them both by turn 4, all the damage that was done to me was a badly damaged Primus, it wasnt even down to threshold

Remember though that one of the tactics everyone says is that a player fighting the Minbari should split fire between as many Minbari ships as possible in an attempt to beat stealth more often.

If a Minbari player takes only a few ships then he highly reduces the viability of that tactic.

As I have said before. All these "tricks" you are supposed to use to make a fight vs the Minbari fair only work if the Minbari player is an idiot and lets you use them. If the Minbari player plays really smart then it becomes lopsided again as Minbari again becomes easy mode.

 

[armbarred]

Remember though that one of the tactics everyone says is that a player fighting the Minbari should split fire between as many Minbari ships as possible in an attempt to beat stealth more often.

Actually, if the Minbari player ever brings a low number of ships it is a benefit to his opposition. All of his dice can therefor be used against one ship, and chances are better that the Minbari will get hit. And if you score a crit that knocks Stealth out? Ouch! I mean I've seen it accomplished and that is usually the end of that ship.

 

[hacksaaw]

Ive been reading this topic for the last couple of weeks, since i picked this game up.

The main reason i bothered with A Call to Arms is because its babylon 5.

If i want every race to have every variant and be balanced with similar level ships i could go back to playing SFB regularly.

First and formost the shipes need to work as they work in the show. If this means that a few sharlin can blast a fleet of earth Omegas to hell and back with ease, then thats the way things should be.

Nor will a war level fleet from every race be balanced against an equivalent fleet from every other race.

so that the major war fleet the EA puts out for a war effort of commitment is not going to equal the power of a Minbari fleet, or a shadow fleet.

Part of the problem is that AOG, coming from their efforts with SFB had been over influenced by that and kept adding in all sorts of different variants, scouts that do more than scout( ie have impact in battle). Since this became canon of sorts as well, it has to be lived with at this point.

i see the current fleet buliding system in the game, actually reflects how you would build fleets the level is the races commitment to that battle, if its patrol or skirmish your not commiting many resources, if tis battle or war your putting a serious effort out.

If your just totalling up points, you dont have this kind of limitation, and the earth war fleet suddenly can stand toe to toe with the Minbari. meaning the background is now irrelevant.

Tournaments are fun, competition is fun, SFB tournaments can be very fun, but they have spent 2 decades fiddling with the tournament ships to get them balanced to some degree. ( and its imperfect and some rock paper interactions remain.) It probably wouldnt hurt to create standard tournament fleets for players to use, similiar to the way the SFB have their tournament ships, this would allso limit the min maxing of the tourney players.

The real problem doesnt seem to be the Minbari so much, but that races like the Vorlons are far to weak to be real old ones.

Just as most races should need telepaths inorder to have a reasonable chance against Shadows.

balance is great, but dont bastardize the background, and destroy the whole point of having a babylon 5 license.

 

[B5freak]

What crit takes down Stealth? The only way I know of to take out a Special ability is to actually Cripple the ship, and even then it's usually only on a 4+.

 

[Tal Hawkins]

What crit takes down Stealth? The only way I know of to take out a Special ability is to actually Cripple the ship, and even then it's usually only on a 4+.

Flaw in the system. There should be places in the crit chart where special systems can be taken down. As for stealth I always found it silly that a crippled ship instantly loses all interceptors while stealth has the standard 4+ chance to fail. In my mind something like stealth ( probably a mix of active and passive on Minbari ships) is much more fragile than interceptots which are several interconnected computer controlled high speed guns.

Maybe I will write up a new crit table with this in mind. Stuff like engine crits can possibly take jump engines offline, etc.

 

[Chernobyl]

Freak is right...criticals don't affect ship traits...they affect things like speed, no special orders, weapons available, etc, but not traits.
Cripple that baby!!

Chern

 

[armbarred]

That was my fault, I was bleary when I typed it up. I meant Cripple it not Crit it.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

First and formost the shipes need to work as they work in the show. If this means that a few sharlin can blast a fleet of earth Omegas to hell and back with ease, then thats the way things should be.

I like this guy. He'll go far. :lol:

Wulf (Extra)

 

[Chernobyl]

I tend to agree...but that would mean that either a new level of PL needs to be thought of, or the earlier idea of adjusting VP for MInbari in tournaments should be considered.

Chern

 

[B5freak]

Well, something needs to be done.

To quote General Beringer from Wargames, "I'd pi@! on a spark plug if I thought it'd do any good!" :lol:

On a side note, a perfectly acceptable response would be to create "Middleborn", "First One", and "Ancient" PL's. If you want to make Minbari and the others really scary and 100% in line with the show, great, push them up a few PL's.

Of course, the number of Minbari, Vorlon, and Shadow fleets you're gonna sell will probably drop off a lot.

 

[homerun]

Yeah when I play minbari I usually attempt to cripple first then decide whether to finish them off. But lots of crits do pay off since it helps them into the grave and you might be able to screw with their weapons. It can really change the flow of things if you knockout their weapons via a variety of means of course they can do that better than you can. But yeah cripple that baby, I've done it and it can help get rid of not only stealth making it easier to finish off and allowing you to concentrate other things. Its possible mongoose might change stealth to be not useful when crippled it makes some sense and wouldn't really be that much of a detrament to minbari players I would imagine. But thats up to them, its not necessary to win but it might change the mindset of opponents, cripple not kill.

As for fleets of smaller ships perhaps in raid class sets I'd like to hear the tactics of that, i have faced tigaras before and in a balanced set they can be scary. However keep in mind that can give up a lot of advantages people have been saying are problems. While manueverable and dangerous. They need to close to use their weapons and most of their weapons are interceptible and very close range. Like all things it can be countered. I think Teshlan and tigara strategies can work but in general you have to admit its a lot easier to cripple those babies. If an earthforce players takes a balanced fleet he can adjust his tactics as well. As was said the more hsips the more there is to shoot at and beat stealth the more you flank the more you expose youself to the really prickily EA ships. You'll find that may play into the EA's stengths an dpossibly pay for it. But thats what makes it fun right?

I just played a very competitive engagement versus minbari using EA. By victory points I edged him. We had to call it but it didn't look good on both sides. I'll post a report soon. My opponent was a player I've played a long itme and he's played both minbari and against them before. he did not make obvious tactical mistakes. I took a well rounded fleet with mixes of missile weapons and tough ships with good fire arcs. My opponent rolled good criticals back and forth. My dice was pretty average and I probably should have hit and criticaled a lot more than i did. (its lousy when you miss even while beating stealth). I'll post it hopefully it will be enjoyable. it was a nice fight.

Freak is right...criticals don't affect ship traits...they affect things like speed, no special orders, weapons available, etc, but not traits.
Cripple that baby!!

Chern

 

[Pauly_D]

What crit takes down Stealth? The only way I know of to take out a Special ability is to actually Cripple the ship, and even then it's usually only on a 4+.

Flaw in the system. There should be places in the crit chart where special systems can be taken down. As for stealth I always found it silly that a crippled ship instantly loses all interceptors while stealth has the standard 4+ chance to fail. In my mind something like stealth ( probably a mix of active and passive on Minbari ships) is much more fragile than interceptots which are several interconnected computer controlled high speed guns.

Maybe I will write up a new crit table with this in mind. Stuff like engine crits can possibly take jump engines offline, etc.

do you mean a little bit like the old AOG crit hits table, they were really good and it covered everything, but yes i agree, there needs to be a crit takes out out special rules

 

[Obsidian]

Maybe I will write up a new crit table with this in mind. Stuff like engine crits can possibly take jump engines offline, etc.

Rather than complicate things why not replace the 4 on the Vital systems table? The "secondary explosion" is kind of silly now that 5 and 6 are no longer insta-death.

You could call it "System crippled" and resolve it like the Weapons Control critical. Roll a die and that particular trait is off line for the game. So in the case of a Sharlin it would be like this

1 - 2 Advanced Jump Point
3 - 4 Flight Computer
5 - 6 Stealth 5+

Roll the die and hope you get another 6... :twisted:

 

[Lawdog1700]

Well, the one thing I can say about SFB is that is is still around 20 years later. Unless Mongoose balances the Minbari (see my post before about how I think that should be done, again I do not want to make them weaker...just up their PL where appropriate)...this game is going to die at tourneys. As people show up with just Minbari fleets, the game will be pretty silly.

If that happens this game will die in a year or two. Just a fact Wulf. It can still be Babylon 5 if it is a good game. Right now, it is a game that seems to have a great system, but some VERY bad balance problems. At least around where I live, nobody at my local game store will play until they come out with an expansion to replace (or fix) SFoS.

That's too bad really, because most of what SFoS did is pretty cool. With only two exceptions...the reduction in power of fighters (which goes against canon) and the strengthening of the Minbari to absolutely outrageous power leves without increasing their PL. I like the Minbari to be powerful, but if that means to have a fair game the Minbari only has one ship in a battle...so be it.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

If that happens this game will die in a year or two. Just a fact Wulf.

If the game is turned over to tournament players, I won't be buying anything new in 6 months or less. I have virtually everything I need already anyway, with the Dilgar War supplement and some additional races (like the Pak and the Third Space ships), the game will be a complete record of B5 canon and logical extension. Anything after that will just be completely fabricated anyway.

Better it should die gracefully than the rotting corpse stagger on under the power of munchkins and point whores.

WUlf