lastbesthope
Mongoose
No worries Jhary.
LBH
LBH
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Those pesky Minbari
- Thread starter Karlopopoli
- Start date
Jhary said:@ lasthope Sorry but when somebody Post some thing that a few here dislike then they post the TV Phrase and that so.
When some asked for a Point systhem or some clues for it = TV Show
When there is a problem with the Centaurys = TV Show
When People fell the Minbarys to strong = TV Show
And so on
Thats the reason why i ask why this persons play any game at all. Its Pure munchkindom what they do. And every other minbary Player gets the Label as Powergamer. What i don´t like.
I imagine they would not respond well if, at a tournament, their opponent put a Shadow fleet on the table and said, "Canon. You lose. Thanks for the game."
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Tredrick said:I imagine they would not respond well if, at a tournament, their opponent put a Shadow fleet on the table and said, "Canon. You lose. Thanks for the game."
The SHadow fleet do not always win in the show.
LBH
lastbesthope said:Tredrick said:I imagine they would not respond well if, at a tournament, their opponent put a Shadow fleet on the table and said, "Canon. You lose. Thanks for the game."
The SHadow fleet do not always win in the show.
LBH
It requires an alliance of many races and massive numerical superiority. ANd possibly John Sheridan or another B5 regular in command. This is not possible in a 5 point Raid game.
I'll one up it then. A vorlon fleet is never defeated, nor is there ever any mention of them suffering a setback. In their one encounter with the Shadows, they emerge triumphant.
Canon: Shadows v. Vorlons, Vorlons win.
It's a game. It cannot and should not perfectly mirror the TV show. In that case we need to scrap a ton of our ships. We never see a Sho'Kos cutter on the screen, do we? I can't remember seeing one.
Not in the TV show? Cut it.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Actually, in the only major Shadow defeat seen, Shadow Dancing, as presented in scenario form,there is only a slight imbalance of forces as measured by ACtA points (depending on whether you make it a hige Battle level scenario or just a damn big War level). he right ships were chosen for the job, plenty of double- and Treble-Damage weapons, good all-round weaponry, good maneouvre ships, excellent fighters. Things you can attempt in any scenario at any level, if you know your own fleet. As for Sheridan? Nope, when it comes to commanding that force, you only have yourself to blame or praise for the results.Tredrick said:It requires an alliance of many races and massive numerical superiority. ANd possibly John Sheridan or another B5 regular in command. This is not possible in a 5 point Raid game.
It would certainly stop the complaints about the Minbari being too powerful. Did they win? Yes. Good, that's the right power level. The real problem isn't the 'game' element, it's the expectation level. People have a 'must win' attitude to the game. If I play, I want to beat my opponent. And that's the problem. Against Shadows, or Minbari, just survival should be the goal. Taking a single enemy ship out should be a major victory. Escaping with just a few ships intact. Adjust your expectations, and the whole thing can play far more reasonably. Shadows and Vorlons can be brought up to their proper level, laying waste to all around them, without howls of complaint about 'balance' It shouldn't BE 'balanced', it should achieve a result fitting to the source material. It doesn't have to be identical, this isn't an action replay, it could be a simulation. The more balanced and fair it becomes, the more it becomes just another generic game.It's a game. It cannot and should not perfectly mirror the TV show. In that case we need to scrap a ton of our ships. We never see a Sho'Kos cutter on the screen, do we? I can't remember seeing one.
Not in the TV show? Cut it.
As for ship designs not from the series? It would certainly be better limiting them to screen canon than ending up in a bottomless pit of increasingly unlikely and munchkinised nonesense as so many other ever-expanding games do. But the current set of designs seem to present a good compromise allowing plenty of variation and fully-rounded fleets. It would be better, of course, if fleets were selected taking careful note of ship availability dates, so that fleets were more validly comparable. That would also make expansions such as the Dilgar War set more useful.
Wulf
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Not everyone wants to play "the show." We would like a fair game that represents the show well. If a ship is unfairly powerful, fine, raise its priority level.
I want the Minbari to be powerful. But a War level ships should be equivalent to another War level ship from any race. That is why we impose the artificial scale of priority levels on ships, to create a fun game.
I personally don't think that the Minbari are as powerful in the show as everyone says. It sure seems to help that they always seemed to outnumber the EA defenders in each engagement...and with Sharlins at that!
I see the Battle of the Line (as a whole) to have been something like a 100 point War level Minbari fleet against a 25 point War level EA fleet. No way to win. If the sides had been equal, the results may have been different...but they weren't.
If you want to play those kind of mismatches...fine. But, a 5 point Minbari force shouls be the equal of a 5 point whoever-else force at any priority level you want to pick. I love the show, but I want to play a game here...and frankly I don't really care what the show says if it makes the game less balanced.
Eveyone seems to have blinders on about this issue. The Minbari should have GREAT ships. And those ships should cost more "points" to create fair match ups. If the current balance is off...then either the ships need to be adjusted...or their priority level needs to be changed. I would prefer the latter, but as we have no priority level above War...I think the Sharlin needs adjustment.
It is my opinion that if they took off 2 of the forward beams on the Sharlin, that might just do it. I haven't tested this, mind you, but that seems right. Maybe people could test this and see how the matchup is between the Sharlin and, say, a Bin'Tak and/or a Warlock.
Just my opinion...
I want the Minbari to be powerful. But a War level ships should be equivalent to another War level ship from any race. That is why we impose the artificial scale of priority levels on ships, to create a fun game.
I personally don't think that the Minbari are as powerful in the show as everyone says. It sure seems to help that they always seemed to outnumber the EA defenders in each engagement...and with Sharlins at that!
I see the Battle of the Line (as a whole) to have been something like a 100 point War level Minbari fleet against a 25 point War level EA fleet. No way to win. If the sides had been equal, the results may have been different...but they weren't.
If you want to play those kind of mismatches...fine. But, a 5 point Minbari force shouls be the equal of a 5 point whoever-else force at any priority level you want to pick. I love the show, but I want to play a game here...and frankly I don't really care what the show says if it makes the game less balanced.
Eveyone seems to have blinders on about this issue. The Minbari should have GREAT ships. And those ships should cost more "points" to create fair match ups. If the current balance is off...then either the ships need to be adjusted...or their priority level needs to be changed. I would prefer the latter, but as we have no priority level above War...I think the Sharlin needs adjustment.
It is my opinion that if they took off 2 of the forward beams on the Sharlin, that might just do it. I haven't tested this, mind you, but that seems right. Maybe people could test this and see how the matchup is between the Sharlin and, say, a Bin'Tak and/or a Warlock.
Just my opinion...
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Actually, a much fairer way to play would be in a campaign. EA is left with too few defenders after losing too many battles.Lawdog1700 said:I see the Battle of the Line (as a whole) to have been something like a 100 point War level Minbari fleet against a 25 point War level EA fleet. No way to win. If the sides had been equal, the results may have been different...but they weren't.
Wulf
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Agreed. The Battle of the Line was clearly the end of a big campaign that had gone really wrong for the EA player.
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Of course, the individual battles of that campaign apparently sometimes pitted a Sharlin against a single damaged Hyperion. The EA player was lucky enough to win one of those...but just one. :wink:
without howls of complaint about 'balance' It shouldn't BE 'balanced', it should achieve a result fitting to the source material. It doesn't have to be identical, this isn't an action replay, it could be a simulation. The more balanced and fair it becomes, the more it becomes just another generic game.
Ups afraid to loose a battle?
Where in the TV Show is mention that Minbarys have an Stealth that works after the building of B5? Answer in no episode.
They had it in the Earth Minbary war. And thats it not later and not against other races.
The centaurians are the other side of this pseudo canon thing.
Hey they where down no Idols no fleets and they needed other races for theire interest. Ok Shadows tooke them as helper and they rebuilt ships and gain strength but overnight? Or before the Shadows where back?
And at least what source material? There is no official read outs No oficials Fleetlist and no oficial Space maps. Even about the technology is there no oficial paper ever printed.
Perhaps this is the key to balancing races like the Minbari and the First Ones. Do not adjust the ship capabilities but adjust the points that are awarded for trashing their ships. OK a Sharlin can carve through a fleet of lesser ships but managing to take one down should constitute a major blow to the Minbari (their pride if not the effectiveness of their fleet).Wulf Corbett said:Against Shadows, or Minbari, just survival should be the goal. Taking a single enemy ship out should be a major victory. Escaping with just a few ships intact. Adjust your expectations, and the whole thing can play far more reasonably.
Maybe if the points were adjusted so that Destroyed Minbari ships were worth 50% higher victory points then that might just be the solution we are looking for.
What you are missing, Wulf, is that there are two types of games: tournament and scenario.
In a tournament, things do need to be fair and balanced. Otherwise you get everyone playing the most powerful race to try and win the prize. This killed the BFG tournament circuit. When the Necron came out, they were nigh unstoppable. One tournament had 30 people sign up, 29 playing the Necrons.
In ACTA, this would result in everyong bringing the Shadows/Vorlons to the tournament. Why play anything else and have no shot at the prize? Especially if there is an entry fee. If you bring your Drazi, might as well jsut turn over your fee and go home. No point in competing if you have zero chance to win.
Scenarios, however, should be unfair. Look at "The Long Twilight Struggle" as one example. 7 G'Quans and G'Sten against 5 Shadow Ships and a Centauri Colony Station. That amounts to a 4 point War Fleet vs. a 6 point War Fleet (plus 4 fighters).
Other scenarios exist.
There is also club play to consider. Not many people are going to want to play a game where the outcome is decided when picking minis out of a box.
You may prefer to play a game where there is an uber race that can crush all others. If you want that, you can always take 1 or 2 points less than your opponent.
In a tournament, things do need to be fair and balanced. Otherwise you get everyone playing the most powerful race to try and win the prize. This killed the BFG tournament circuit. When the Necron came out, they were nigh unstoppable. One tournament had 30 people sign up, 29 playing the Necrons.
In ACTA, this would result in everyong bringing the Shadows/Vorlons to the tournament. Why play anything else and have no shot at the prize? Especially if there is an entry fee. If you bring your Drazi, might as well jsut turn over your fee and go home. No point in competing if you have zero chance to win.
Scenarios, however, should be unfair. Look at "The Long Twilight Struggle" as one example. 7 G'Quans and G'Sten against 5 Shadow Ships and a Centauri Colony Station. That amounts to a 4 point War Fleet vs. a 6 point War Fleet (plus 4 fighters).
Other scenarios exist.
There is also club play to consider. Not many people are going to want to play a game where the outcome is decided when picking minis out of a box.
You may prefer to play a game where there is an uber race that can crush all others. If you want that, you can always take 1 or 2 points less than your opponent.
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Chernobyl said:Yeah, Sheridan got as 6-6 crit on that one...of course, they changed the rules after that... :lol:
Chern
Hey I never thought of that. Boy EA sure got the short end of the stick in SFoS...first, they reduce the power of fighters....then, they take away Sheridan's victory crit.
Next, they will change interceptors so they actually attract enemy weapons fire...
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Now there, you see, you lose my interest immediately. I'm a wargamer and a roleplayer, I have no interest whatsoever in tournament play. I play ACtA as simulation, as tactical exercise, as roleplay, but never purely as game.Tredrick said:What you are missing, Wulf, is that there are two types of games: tournament and scenario.
So, should I temper my arguments to allow for the other man's point of view? No, of course not, never. I will fight from my corner, you fight from yours. Why start with a position of compromise? That just ends up with the result further away from my own ideal.
Wulf
Wulf Corbett said:I play ACtA as simulation, as tactical exercise, as roleplay, but never purely as game
But is SFoS and ACTA to serve only the Simulator or the Gamer or Both?
I can always tweak the scenario to get the right Simulation, but i can't always doubleguess the designers to get the right Game.
At least by the Yank economic model, a game needs to be a Game to flourish. Flourishing means more cool minis, and better and cooler product in years to come. Put me down for Game.
PART ONE---------
We tried a 3 Battle Point match last night, to try out the Reduced Stealth option, where printed numbers are the target at range, and you get a +1 bonus within 10". We left AD alone, and alos set up for EA to use all the Stealth Countering tactics. We tried to keep both fleets fairly typical.
EA:
1 Omega
2 Hyperion
1 Nova
1 Oracle Scout
--- This gave 10 Fighter stands to try StF! and one Scout Roll each turn. A lot of boresights, but that's hard to avoid with the EA mainstays.
Minbari:
2 Tinashi in one Squadron
1 Teshlan (Leshath? I have the name mixed up in the notes)
2 Torotha (According to SFoS, 1 Raid + 2 Skirm = 1 Battle now)
We deliberately avoided Minbari Fighters (i.e a Morshin) to see how EA Fighters helped if unopposed.
Scenario is a standard Call to Arms
Minbari win Set-Up. EA is told to set-up first. I placed the Omega at an angle to my left, so he can command the most table with his Beams without being in a corner too much or having to turn. I put the Oracle just to his right inside. The Nova went in the center, flanked by the Hyperions. If the Minbari sets up way-across from the Omega, to plink at range, they’ll be able to precede the Omega’s guns in. If the Minbari place to the Omega’s left, they can come in as a right hook while the Omega turns.
The Minbari player kinda did both in his set-up. He places the Tinashi pack diagonally opposite the Omega, while the Teshlan and Torothas line up for a flank run on the Omega.
TURN 1 –
Minbari win Initiative, even with the re-roll from the Oracle. They didn't lose Init the whole game with their +3 over EA.
The Torothas sweep in on the Oracle.
I decide to break left with my center, letting the Omega duel the Tinashi’s at range, while I try to crush his weak flanking approach. The Nova will slow them down in the middle, and provide the same firepower both before and after they pass it – not to mention providing a big psychological target to soak up better used firepower. If the refused flank works, it’ll be most of my fleet left turning into the Tinashis just as they and the omega joust past each other.
I turn the leftmost Hyperion and boresight a Torotha (only thing in range)
The Teshlan sweeps in and CF!’s on that Hyperion.
My Oracle moves a bit, and boresights the Teshlan.
The Tinashi go their full 10” straight ahead, and CF! on the rightside Hyperion.
The Omega goes on Scramble to drop 2 Starfuries, and boresights on the closest Tinashi.
The Hyperion boresights on the same Tinashi, knowing he cannot escape their range by any means.
The Nova trundles up the middle, angling for broadsides on both halves of the Minbari fleet next turn. It also makes the 3+ for Scramble, and drops 2 flights.
The 4 fighters I started with form up for their turn 2 targets. One flight that’s in range goes in for a StF! on a Torotha and gets it.
FIRING ----
The Oracle fails the 4+ Scout roll against the Tinashi. This will prove critical.
Minbari player, perhaps in a fit of forebearance, fires the Torotha first, scratching the paint on the Omega.
The grateful but doomed Hyperion Captain fires his main gun at the Tinashi. Needing a 4+ for Stealth, he makes it. The beams score an unspectacular 10dam/8crew (about ¼ of the Tinashi) with no Crits to at all.
The Tinashis, their patience expended, open up with their 8 beam dice on CF! and severely overkill the Hyperion.
The Oracle, now having the best shot on the unfired Teshlan, blows her stealth roll of 4+.
The Teshlan fires, and scores a mere 6/6 against the remaining Hyperion.
The Omega, looking for vengeance, fires at the Tinashi with his 4AD beam. Needing a 4+, he rolls a 3, missing a kill chance due to the Oracle’s scouting failure.
The Nova is just out of range to hit anything.
The Hyperion fails it’s Stealth roll of 3+, missing a chance to vape a Torotha.
No Fighters fire, as they were all out of range or scanning.
Observation: Under the old Tinashi stats, the Hyperion would’ve seriously wounded that Tinashi, if not crippled it, but still probably not have survived the return fire. Assuming of course the Minbari player hadn’t fired the Tinashis first, which he easily could’ve done.
---
Continued next Post!
We tried a 3 Battle Point match last night, to try out the Reduced Stealth option, where printed numbers are the target at range, and you get a +1 bonus within 10". We left AD alone, and alos set up for EA to use all the Stealth Countering tactics. We tried to keep both fleets fairly typical.
EA:
1 Omega
2 Hyperion
1 Nova
1 Oracle Scout
--- This gave 10 Fighter stands to try StF! and one Scout Roll each turn. A lot of boresights, but that's hard to avoid with the EA mainstays.
Minbari:
2 Tinashi in one Squadron
1 Teshlan (Leshath? I have the name mixed up in the notes)
2 Torotha (According to SFoS, 1 Raid + 2 Skirm = 1 Battle now)
We deliberately avoided Minbari Fighters (i.e a Morshin) to see how EA Fighters helped if unopposed.
Scenario is a standard Call to Arms
Minbari win Set-Up. EA is told to set-up first. I placed the Omega at an angle to my left, so he can command the most table with his Beams without being in a corner too much or having to turn. I put the Oracle just to his right inside. The Nova went in the center, flanked by the Hyperions. If the Minbari sets up way-across from the Omega, to plink at range, they’ll be able to precede the Omega’s guns in. If the Minbari place to the Omega’s left, they can come in as a right hook while the Omega turns.
The Minbari player kinda did both in his set-up. He places the Tinashi pack diagonally opposite the Omega, while the Teshlan and Torothas line up for a flank run on the Omega.
TURN 1 –
Minbari win Initiative, even with the re-roll from the Oracle. They didn't lose Init the whole game with their +3 over EA.
The Torothas sweep in on the Oracle.
I decide to break left with my center, letting the Omega duel the Tinashi’s at range, while I try to crush his weak flanking approach. The Nova will slow them down in the middle, and provide the same firepower both before and after they pass it – not to mention providing a big psychological target to soak up better used firepower. If the refused flank works, it’ll be most of my fleet left turning into the Tinashis just as they and the omega joust past each other.
I turn the leftmost Hyperion and boresight a Torotha (only thing in range)
The Teshlan sweeps in and CF!’s on that Hyperion.
My Oracle moves a bit, and boresights the Teshlan.
The Tinashi go their full 10” straight ahead, and CF! on the rightside Hyperion.
The Omega goes on Scramble to drop 2 Starfuries, and boresights on the closest Tinashi.
The Hyperion boresights on the same Tinashi, knowing he cannot escape their range by any means.
The Nova trundles up the middle, angling for broadsides on both halves of the Minbari fleet next turn. It also makes the 3+ for Scramble, and drops 2 flights.
The 4 fighters I started with form up for their turn 2 targets. One flight that’s in range goes in for a StF! on a Torotha and gets it.
FIRING ----
The Oracle fails the 4+ Scout roll against the Tinashi. This will prove critical.
Minbari player, perhaps in a fit of forebearance, fires the Torotha first, scratching the paint on the Omega.
The grateful but doomed Hyperion Captain fires his main gun at the Tinashi. Needing a 4+ for Stealth, he makes it. The beams score an unspectacular 10dam/8crew (about ¼ of the Tinashi) with no Crits to at all.
The Tinashis, their patience expended, open up with their 8 beam dice on CF! and severely overkill the Hyperion.
The Oracle, now having the best shot on the unfired Teshlan, blows her stealth roll of 4+.
The Teshlan fires, and scores a mere 6/6 against the remaining Hyperion.
The Omega, looking for vengeance, fires at the Tinashi with his 4AD beam. Needing a 4+, he rolls a 3, missing a kill chance due to the Oracle’s scouting failure.
The Nova is just out of range to hit anything.
The Hyperion fails it’s Stealth roll of 3+, missing a chance to vape a Torotha.
No Fighters fire, as they were all out of range or scanning.
Observation: Under the old Tinashi stats, the Hyperion would’ve seriously wounded that Tinashi, if not crippled it, but still probably not have survived the return fire. Assuming of course the Minbari player hadn’t fired the Tinashis first, which he easily could’ve done.
---
Continued next Post!
PART TWO---
TURN 2
EA must again move first, and now one ship down, I move the Nova into the obvious max coverage spot, and drop his last Fighter.
The Teshlan moves towards the Hyperion in the center. No CF! to keep his target options open.
I whip the Oracle around, and boresight the Teshlan at PB range. If they want the Oracle, she’s dead anyways I figure.
The Torothas surround the Oracle.
The Hyperion continues his turn into the Torotha, lining up both as possible for the boresight. Not quite in range of the Teshlan for all secondary weapons, and as the Tinashis haven’t moved yet, no aft boresight.
Tinashis turn in towards Nova.
Omega boresights Tinashi #1 again, and drops Fighter.
Fighters move up on the near Torotha, the Teshlan, and Tinashi #1. Each set does 1 fighter “inside” to Scan, and 2 others outside the Minibeam Anti-fighter range (4”) but within 6” to help with StF! They also stay in the target’s front arc, as much as possible, to force firing choices. The Tinashi is dropped to 3+ Stealth, the teshlan to a 3+, and the Torotha to a 3+.
FIRING---
The Oracle makes the Scout roll, knocking the #1 Tinashi to a 2+!
The Tinashi lead off, firing beams at the Omega, and mini-beams at the Nova. They kinda whiff their Beam rolls (no CF!), making only 4/4 on the Omega. They whomp on the Nova a bit more, doing 8/8, and causing a Reactor-6 crit. The Nova is not going anywhere the rest of the game.
The Oracle fires before her assumed death. She does 4/4 to the Teshlan with her beam, 2/2 to the near Torotha with side guns, making both 2+ Stealth rolls. She fails a 2+ Stealth roll on the Tinashi with the 1AD Missle.
The Torothas fire, one missing the 2+ Stealth roll on the Oracle. The other does only 3/3 to the scoutship.
The Hyperion unloads on the Torotha with beams, making 2+ Stealth and destroying it. Explosion kills a fighter. It fires 12” guns at Teshlan, doing a mere 1/1, and the 8” DD guns are a half inch out of range.
The Teshlan fails the 2+ Stealth roll to see the Oracle, and misses.
The Omega preps his vengeance again for Tinashi #1. Stealth roll needs a 2+ and OF COURSE, rolls a 1. Secondary weapons are all out of range.
The Nova makes the Stealth roll, and does a piddling 6/8 to the Tinashi. (Had the Tinashi still a 4+ armor, would’ve been 12 hits base).
No Fighters can fire, as they were all scanning.
TURN 3
EA must move first again, and I designate the SPD 0 Nova. ;-)
The Teshlan does CF! on the Omega.
The Oracle fails a Come About, and can only get the Teshlan in side weapons.
The Torotha targets the Oracle again.
The Hyperion fails a Come About roll, and decides to bring full front to bear on the Torotha, in order to finish the turn towards the Tinashi. The other option was an aft boresight on the Teshlan, but the Omega and Nova should be able to take care of him.
The Tinashis CF! on the Omega and are still on the opposite side of the Nova. Crap.
The Omega lines up Tinashi#2 in Boresight and the Torotha in Aft boresight. I can’t get Tinashi #1 without turning too much broadside to general Tinashi advance. (Man, a base-wide arc would’ve helped here).
Fighters move to scan Teshlan, Torotha, and Tinashi #1 (Nova bait, I hope).
FIRING---
Oracle scans Tinashi #2 successfully. All Stealth rolls across the Minbari will be 2 or 3+ now, and luckily I make them all this turn.
Tinashi go first, 8 AD Mister Neutrons do 24/24 to Omega then get a #3 on the Vital Systems chart. Omega is hulked, never having fired a successful shot.
The Hyperion fires on the Torotha with all fore weaponry, and does only 7/7. Woo. It does 3/5 to Teshlan with Port weapons.
The Teshlan finishes the Omega off, and the explosion kills 2 fighters and scrapes a fair chunk from the Nova.
The Nova “unloads” into the Tinashi #1, doing a mere 5/5, no crits. It fares little better on the Teshlan opposite, doing 5/8.
The Torotha fires at the Oracle, and whiffs.
TURN 4—
The Minbari win init again, sealing the EA fate. To summarize, the Tinashi proceed to vaporize the last Hyperion, ignoring the still immobile Nova. They also use overlapping mini-beams to destroy all the remaining 6 fighters, who’ve given up on scanning and tried an attack run on the wounded Tinashi#1.
The Nova and Teshlan cripple and skeleton crew each other. The peppy Oracle manages to finish the Teshlan, and cripple the Torotha in the ensuing explosion.
One Oracle vs 2 Tinashi, we call it.
A fairly solid rout of the EA.
Observations:
By devoting 1/6th of my force and all my fighters, (and with our general -1 to Stealth playtest) I was able to negate Stealth through most of the game. However, the two notable exceptions were devastating to EA – both volleys from the Omega’s main guns, that might’ve taken a Tinashi out of the equation.
Regarding Fighters, they’re a really boring waste when spent on Scanning tasks, and I could only succeed for 2 turns because the Minbari had no interceptor Nials. In a large game with a Morshin around, forget it.
The Oracle (and the also-Raid Delphi) seem to be way too high a PL. I give up a Hyperion or Nova for this? Compared to the Centauri and Vree Scout choices, they’re silly.
So Stealth can be countered, but still unreliably, and still at a fair resource devotion. With the by-the-book Stealth, I wouldn’t even have scratched a single Tinashi.
The high init plus Tinashi firepower meant a real struggle to answer Minbari shots as attrition took its toll. While I’m barely lining up boresights, they’re doing CF! fairly easily. The Turn 3 death of the Omega was accomplished on average rolling as well.
So over EA, the Minbari have Stealth, equivalent damage, comparable armor, greater firepower in a wide arc (thus easier CF!), and better speed, maneuver, and initiative.
The EA get a fair Fighter advantage, but this is nerfed by the need to counter Stealth, and they simply can’t do anything else due to Anti-fighter weaponry that goes first.
Without changes, there’s little way to avoid chronic frustration and loss for an EA commander. Since EA is supposed to be the “flagship” fleet of a space game (you know, us being on the Earth and all), this disparity really is puzzling. I’m now shifted from my former “Just fix Stealth” stance to seeing a problem with the base Beam AD for any F-arc weapons. Centauri accomplish much the same effect as Minbari, just without Stealth (allowing them to buy more ships, and more beam dice). This type of long-range, “kill the enemy’s every chance to respond at arm’s length” approach is not only basically unfair, it’s boring to play from either side.
Call me a whiner if you can think of nothing else, but without a sense of a Good Match, without a sense of fairness for all fleets against one another, without a Fun Factor showing itself, without changing the new imbalances shown by SFoS…
Why play this game?
TURN 2
EA must again move first, and now one ship down, I move the Nova into the obvious max coverage spot, and drop his last Fighter.
The Teshlan moves towards the Hyperion in the center. No CF! to keep his target options open.
I whip the Oracle around, and boresight the Teshlan at PB range. If they want the Oracle, she’s dead anyways I figure.
The Torothas surround the Oracle.
The Hyperion continues his turn into the Torotha, lining up both as possible for the boresight. Not quite in range of the Teshlan for all secondary weapons, and as the Tinashis haven’t moved yet, no aft boresight.
Tinashis turn in towards Nova.
Omega boresights Tinashi #1 again, and drops Fighter.
Fighters move up on the near Torotha, the Teshlan, and Tinashi #1. Each set does 1 fighter “inside” to Scan, and 2 others outside the Minibeam Anti-fighter range (4”) but within 6” to help with StF! They also stay in the target’s front arc, as much as possible, to force firing choices. The Tinashi is dropped to 3+ Stealth, the teshlan to a 3+, and the Torotha to a 3+.
FIRING---
The Oracle makes the Scout roll, knocking the #1 Tinashi to a 2+!
The Tinashi lead off, firing beams at the Omega, and mini-beams at the Nova. They kinda whiff their Beam rolls (no CF!), making only 4/4 on the Omega. They whomp on the Nova a bit more, doing 8/8, and causing a Reactor-6 crit. The Nova is not going anywhere the rest of the game.
The Oracle fires before her assumed death. She does 4/4 to the Teshlan with her beam, 2/2 to the near Torotha with side guns, making both 2+ Stealth rolls. She fails a 2+ Stealth roll on the Tinashi with the 1AD Missle.
The Torothas fire, one missing the 2+ Stealth roll on the Oracle. The other does only 3/3 to the scoutship.
The Hyperion unloads on the Torotha with beams, making 2+ Stealth and destroying it. Explosion kills a fighter. It fires 12” guns at Teshlan, doing a mere 1/1, and the 8” DD guns are a half inch out of range.
The Teshlan fails the 2+ Stealth roll to see the Oracle, and misses.
The Omega preps his vengeance again for Tinashi #1. Stealth roll needs a 2+ and OF COURSE, rolls a 1. Secondary weapons are all out of range.
The Nova makes the Stealth roll, and does a piddling 6/8 to the Tinashi. (Had the Tinashi still a 4+ armor, would’ve been 12 hits base).
No Fighters can fire, as they were all scanning.
TURN 3
EA must move first again, and I designate the SPD 0 Nova. ;-)
The Teshlan does CF! on the Omega.
The Oracle fails a Come About, and can only get the Teshlan in side weapons.
The Torotha targets the Oracle again.
The Hyperion fails a Come About roll, and decides to bring full front to bear on the Torotha, in order to finish the turn towards the Tinashi. The other option was an aft boresight on the Teshlan, but the Omega and Nova should be able to take care of him.
The Tinashis CF! on the Omega and are still on the opposite side of the Nova. Crap.
The Omega lines up Tinashi#2 in Boresight and the Torotha in Aft boresight. I can’t get Tinashi #1 without turning too much broadside to general Tinashi advance. (Man, a base-wide arc would’ve helped here).
Fighters move to scan Teshlan, Torotha, and Tinashi #1 (Nova bait, I hope).
FIRING---
Oracle scans Tinashi #2 successfully. All Stealth rolls across the Minbari will be 2 or 3+ now, and luckily I make them all this turn.
Tinashi go first, 8 AD Mister Neutrons do 24/24 to Omega then get a #3 on the Vital Systems chart. Omega is hulked, never having fired a successful shot.
The Hyperion fires on the Torotha with all fore weaponry, and does only 7/7. Woo. It does 3/5 to Teshlan with Port weapons.
The Teshlan finishes the Omega off, and the explosion kills 2 fighters and scrapes a fair chunk from the Nova.
The Nova “unloads” into the Tinashi #1, doing a mere 5/5, no crits. It fares little better on the Teshlan opposite, doing 5/8.
The Torotha fires at the Oracle, and whiffs.
TURN 4—
The Minbari win init again, sealing the EA fate. To summarize, the Tinashi proceed to vaporize the last Hyperion, ignoring the still immobile Nova. They also use overlapping mini-beams to destroy all the remaining 6 fighters, who’ve given up on scanning and tried an attack run on the wounded Tinashi#1.
The Nova and Teshlan cripple and skeleton crew each other. The peppy Oracle manages to finish the Teshlan, and cripple the Torotha in the ensuing explosion.
One Oracle vs 2 Tinashi, we call it.
A fairly solid rout of the EA.
Observations:
By devoting 1/6th of my force and all my fighters, (and with our general -1 to Stealth playtest) I was able to negate Stealth through most of the game. However, the two notable exceptions were devastating to EA – both volleys from the Omega’s main guns, that might’ve taken a Tinashi out of the equation.
Regarding Fighters, they’re a really boring waste when spent on Scanning tasks, and I could only succeed for 2 turns because the Minbari had no interceptor Nials. In a large game with a Morshin around, forget it.
The Oracle (and the also-Raid Delphi) seem to be way too high a PL. I give up a Hyperion or Nova for this? Compared to the Centauri and Vree Scout choices, they’re silly.
So Stealth can be countered, but still unreliably, and still at a fair resource devotion. With the by-the-book Stealth, I wouldn’t even have scratched a single Tinashi.
The high init plus Tinashi firepower meant a real struggle to answer Minbari shots as attrition took its toll. While I’m barely lining up boresights, they’re doing CF! fairly easily. The Turn 3 death of the Omega was accomplished on average rolling as well.
So over EA, the Minbari have Stealth, equivalent damage, comparable armor, greater firepower in a wide arc (thus easier CF!), and better speed, maneuver, and initiative.
The EA get a fair Fighter advantage, but this is nerfed by the need to counter Stealth, and they simply can’t do anything else due to Anti-fighter weaponry that goes first.
Without changes, there’s little way to avoid chronic frustration and loss for an EA commander. Since EA is supposed to be the “flagship” fleet of a space game (you know, us being on the Earth and all), this disparity really is puzzling. I’m now shifted from my former “Just fix Stealth” stance to seeing a problem with the base Beam AD for any F-arc weapons. Centauri accomplish much the same effect as Minbari, just without Stealth (allowing them to buy more ships, and more beam dice). This type of long-range, “kill the enemy’s every chance to respond at arm’s length” approach is not only basically unfair, it’s boring to play from either side.
Call me a whiner if you can think of nothing else, but without a sense of a Good Match, without a sense of fairness for all fleets against one another, without a Fun Factor showing itself, without changing the new imbalances shown by SFoS…
Why play this game?
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Wow...we agree again Rorschach.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Jhary said:Where in the TV Show is mention that Minbarys have an Stealth that works after the building of B5? Answer in no episode.
I can think of at least 2 occassions:
1) The Season 2 opener, Sheridan is surprised that the Minbari can be detected by the station's sensors whern they have the same tracking units as during the war, he obviously expects the Minbari stealth to defeat their trackers, this is how he figures out what they are up to.
2) In Season 5, Lennier activates stealth mode in his Nial to hook on to the Centyauri vessel when searching for the hidden base.
Lawdog1700 said:Chernobyl said:Yeah, Sheridan got as 6-6 crit on that one...of course, they changed the rules after that... :lol:
Chern
Hey I never thought of that. Boy EA sure got the short end of the stick in SFoS...first, they reduce the power of fighters....then, they take away Sheridan's victory crit.
Just rewatched that scene to check, it takes 2 nukes to completely obliterste the Minbari vessel in ITB, the first one just wipes a fin off mainly.
LBH
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