Agreed, but there there are nuances in the tactic's application against Minbari that bear consideration. For instance, arriving within 10" of the Minbari even through the Slicer's range is longer or making a point of staying in the Port or Starboard arcs to avoid the Neutron Lasers.
Those pesky Minbari
- Thread starter Karlopopoli
- Start date
lastbesthope
Mongoose
B5freak said:
I love these self answering questions :lol:
LBH
B5freak said:
But that is part of the tactical battle for the Minbari. Keeping your opponent at arms length for as long as possible to maximise your advantage, some Minbari ships are best used by ignoring the fusion cannons until you need to fire them, rather then rushing foreward to get things in range of your side arcs.
B5freak said:
I agree, but what I was trying to say is sometimes those drawbacks are too costly to take from time to time. For instance EA missiles, they usually have a low AD and Slow-Loading, which makes them quite a big gamble to use against a Stealthed opponent, as you cannot guarantee being able to roll any dice when you fire them. As opposed to an Avioki's massive amount of AD, which also has Slow-Loading, however the more dice you have the more targets you can choose to throw some dice against. So you may at least make some Stealth rolls to be able to roll to hit with. Its about trying to stack some of the odds away from all or nothing. I also hear what you are saying about the Centauri and Minbari having no drawbacks on their heavy weapons. But they seem to make up for this by having less secondary weapons and often no tertiary weapons. Compare the fore armaments of a Bin'Tak to a Sharlin. The Bin'Tak has so much more firepower to spread around to your enemy, whilst the Sharlin needs to focus more.
B5freak said:
In a way I agree, but I also disagree. Comparing individual ships can be like trying to compare an apple and an orange. On the surface they are both round fruit, but underneath they are completely different. You need to take the right ship for job you want it to do, and some ships are just unsuitable for some of the jobs people expect them to do simply because of their PL. Whilst an Avioki might give an Omega a run for its money 1 on 1, as you have outlined, the Avioki should fare considerably better against a G'Quan.
What you also need to remember is that ACTA is a fleet game. And that sometimes a weak looking ship on paper because it will be fragged in no time 1 on 1, is much more likely to survive to do its thing because your opponent has other, more immediately threatening things to worry about at the time. You use the fleet to make up the weaknesses of on individual ship. for example: Vorlons are restricted to foreward acrs, which mean they can be out manouevred 1 on 1. However another ship can cover this 'flaw' in a fleet engagement.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
I think thats a key point alot of people are missing (and Im glad someone else brought it up too 
).
ACTA is a fleet game not a ship vs ship game. This especially comes to the fore in the way priority levels and points work. By limiting ships to one of 5 costs effectively for whatever level youre playing at you cant expect every ship to match up against all its 'eqivalents'. Whilst a Sharlin may not be a fair match against a Warlock, a 5 point Minbari Raid fleet IS (in my oppinion) a fair match for a 5 point raid fleet from just about any race you care to choose. Now what exact 5 point fleet you use is another matter entirely, but the right fleet can certainly win, whilst the wrong one will have a hard time.
Also where stealth is involved, it, like any other rule involving dice,such as armour and firing in general, are affected greatly by luck. If you roll badly all game and your opponent rolls well, then youre almost certainly going to lose. And not just against Minbari. Stealth can be frustrating but I dont think really any more 'unfair' than giving the Bin Tak for example, armour 6, 85 damage and I believe 52 AD of foward weapons (at short range and including BS weaps...) However get on its rear and its suddenly in alot of trouble, with the sharlin, pass 1 or 2 stealth rolls and open up with that lot.... ouch. My point is that everything has strenghts and weaknesses.
Anyway I dont really know where im going with this anymore and my brain is already asleep so I think I shall stop now.
To sum up. IMHO Minbari aint broken. Tough maybe. But broken no. I liked it when this thread turned for a while away from listing all the ways Minbari were 'wrong' and instead started to discuss anti minbari tactics. In fact id like to see more tactics threads about how to deal with all sorts of various races. I have plenty of ideas of my own but like to see other peoples takes on stuff too
ahhhh!!!! I started again!! SLEEEEP!!!!
).ACTA is a fleet game not a ship vs ship game. This especially comes to the fore in the way priority levels and points work. By limiting ships to one of 5 costs effectively for whatever level youre playing at you cant expect every ship to match up against all its 'eqivalents'. Whilst a Sharlin may not be a fair match against a Warlock, a 5 point Minbari Raid fleet IS (in my oppinion) a fair match for a 5 point raid fleet from just about any race you care to choose. Now what exact 5 point fleet you use is another matter entirely, but the right fleet can certainly win, whilst the wrong one will have a hard time.
Also where stealth is involved, it, like any other rule involving dice,such as armour and firing in general, are affected greatly by luck. If you roll badly all game and your opponent rolls well, then youre almost certainly going to lose. And not just against Minbari. Stealth can be frustrating but I dont think really any more 'unfair' than giving the Bin Tak for example, armour 6, 85 damage and I believe 52 AD of foward weapons (at short range and including BS weaps...) However get on its rear and its suddenly in alot of trouble, with the sharlin, pass 1 or 2 stealth rolls and open up with that lot.... ouch. My point is that everything has strenghts and weaknesses.
Anyway I dont really know where im going with this anymore and my brain is already asleep so I think I shall stop now.
To sum up. IMHO Minbari aint broken. Tough maybe. But broken no. I liked it when this thread turned for a while away from listing all the ways Minbari were 'wrong' and instead started to discuss anti minbari tactics. In fact id like to see more tactics threads about how to deal with all sorts of various races. I have plenty of ideas of my own but like to see other peoples takes on stuff too
ahhhh!!!! I started again!! SLEEEEP!!!!
Silvereye,
I don't argue that this is a fleet vs fleet game, with some ships having specific roles that would make them ill suited to facing other ships of the same PL. My comparison of the Omega vs Avioki is because they were close to an apple-to-apple, but with a distinct difference in design philosophy where primary weapons were concerned. As to the Avioki giving you more dice to throw at various opponents, it's main weapon is a Beam. I'd actually get more dispersal options using a Saggitarius' missile launchers since it isn't limited by the beam's 4" rule.
All,
I have to ask, how much are you guys playing? I've been averaging 3-4 games a week since getting ahold of the PDF version of SFoS last month and have been actively trying every tactic imaginable, with the help of a gaming group of around 5 or 6 guys. If you look to some of my early posts, you'll see that I was once one of those people who thought a tactic or fleet combination existed that would even the odds against the Minbari. At this point however, after a fairly intensive effort to find that secret key, my gaming group and I are at pretty much a dead end.
To short-run some of the "have you tried this" responses, here's what we've tried:
Mass outnumbering
Scanners to Full!
Scouts
Spreading fire
Missile varients
Concentrating fighters in 1 fire arc
Using multiple fighters (to get the CQ bonus)
Keeping all but one fighter outside 4" to increase survivability
Closing to within 10"
Trying to get out of the Minbari's forward arc
Jumping in
Our standard game is 5 Battle points.
If you've played a game against Minbari in SFoS and won (with something other than Centauri), I'd very much like to hear about the fleet compositions and a battle report. Again, I could be wrong, but I haven't heard a single pro-tactics person provide that kind of detailed, first-hand information. Matt has said that he does it and is going to provide an article, and Right Hand of God has said that his Minbari are regularly trounced, but that's about all anyone has posted.
If tactics are the answer, lets take that up as the challenge for this weekend. Commit to playing at least one game of Minbari vs somebody. On Sunday night, give us a battle report. From the posts, we already know Centauri can do it, so lets concentrate on the others.
LBH,
I asked because previous posters had mentioned using Shadow fighters in that manner and no one had called them on it. I thought it a bit odd, but could see the arguement that since Aux craft are already limited to very specific SA's, the general restrictions on first one "vessels" didn't apply to their Aux craft.
I don't argue that this is a fleet vs fleet game, with some ships having specific roles that would make them ill suited to facing other ships of the same PL. My comparison of the Omega vs Avioki is because they were close to an apple-to-apple, but with a distinct difference in design philosophy where primary weapons were concerned. As to the Avioki giving you more dice to throw at various opponents, it's main weapon is a Beam. I'd actually get more dispersal options using a Saggitarius' missile launchers since it isn't limited by the beam's 4" rule.
All,
I have to ask, how much are you guys playing? I've been averaging 3-4 games a week since getting ahold of the PDF version of SFoS last month and have been actively trying every tactic imaginable, with the help of a gaming group of around 5 or 6 guys. If you look to some of my early posts, you'll see that I was once one of those people who thought a tactic or fleet combination existed that would even the odds against the Minbari. At this point however, after a fairly intensive effort to find that secret key, my gaming group and I are at pretty much a dead end.
To short-run some of the "have you tried this" responses, here's what we've tried:
Mass outnumbering
Scanners to Full!
Scouts
Spreading fire
Missile varients
Concentrating fighters in 1 fire arc
Using multiple fighters (to get the CQ bonus)
Keeping all but one fighter outside 4" to increase survivability
Closing to within 10"
Trying to get out of the Minbari's forward arc
Jumping in
Our standard game is 5 Battle points.
If you've played a game against Minbari in SFoS and won (with something other than Centauri), I'd very much like to hear about the fleet compositions and a battle report. Again, I could be wrong, but I haven't heard a single pro-tactics person provide that kind of detailed, first-hand information. Matt has said that he does it and is going to provide an article, and Right Hand of God has said that his Minbari are regularly trounced, but that's about all anyone has posted.
If tactics are the answer, lets take that up as the challenge for this weekend. Commit to playing at least one game of Minbari vs somebody. On Sunday night, give us a battle report. From the posts, we already know Centauri can do it, so lets concentrate on the others.
LBH,
I asked because previous posters had mentioned using Shadow fighters in that manner and no one had called them on it. I thought it a bit odd, but could see the arguement that since Aux craft are already limited to very specific SA's, the general restrictions on first one "vessels" didn't apply to their Aux craft.
It's my opinion that a lot of the arguments against the Minbari being better than everyone else are soley based on people just really not wanting them to be so. However they are. And while there is the little list on how to fight them it doesn't even the playing field especially since the Minbari player has probably read the list too.
The one tactic I have a problem with is splitting fire. I'd rather do all my damage to one ship than splitting it between two. I don't see how stealth effects this. Perhaps players just feel less frustrated when they get to roll at least a few attack dice. The exception to this is HARM missiles. I think an effective tactic against the Minbari would be Corvettes and Missile Carriers packing HARM missiles. If you are facing a Minbari fleet that consists of a couple big ships it may work. Of course one would have to get within 15" to fire them, but that's usually not too much of a problem.
Oh yeah just so you all are all clear on this fighters suck and so do Vorlons and Shadows. Also in chess it's better to be white than black. I know it's shocking and hard to accept, but it's true. :shock:
The one tactic I have a problem with is splitting fire. I'd rather do all my damage to one ship than splitting it between two. I don't see how stealth effects this. Perhaps players just feel less frustrated when they get to roll at least a few attack dice. The exception to this is HARM missiles. I think an effective tactic against the Minbari would be Corvettes and Missile Carriers packing HARM missiles. If you are facing a Minbari fleet that consists of a couple big ships it may work. Of course one would have to get within 15" to fire them, but that's usually not too much of a problem.
Oh yeah just so you all are all clear on this fighters suck and so do Vorlons and Shadows. Also in chess it's better to be white than black. I know it's shocking and hard to accept, but it's true. :shock:
Nah, tried the HARM thing. Took 4 Hermes with HARMs and put them on my Oracle for good measure. I figured that the Hermes, with a 12" move, could close the range for a turn 1 first strike. Unfortunately, set-up kept me from getting close enough to attempt firing them off at all but the closest Minbari ship in turn 1, and I couldn't get past the Stealth.
I had better luck in turn 2 thanks to closing the range and getting StF! off against one of the ships (I had it set up for a 2+ against two ships but rolled a 1 on one of them). I managed to put HARMs on every ship in the Minbari fleet. Unfortunately, by then the Minbari player had managed to destroy two Hyperions (blew one up in a single CF salvo from the Sharlin without even needing a Crit), which greatly restricted my firepower. By that point, the most the HARM Stealth was able to do was buy a few ships another turn. By turn 3, I had 2 Hermes, 1 Hyperion, and 1 Omega left to his Sharlin and 3 Tinashi, all of which I'd only managed to scratch. In 3 turns he tanked 2 Saggitarius, 2 Hyperions, 2 Hermes, and an Oracle.
I have to agree on the splitting firepower. While the non-Minbari player is plinking away at the Minbari ships with mini-salvo's that do at most 3 or 4 damage a turn, the Minbari fleet blowing away at least one ship a turn. In the end, unless you've got nothing but triple damage weapons, the splitting fire tactic just can't keep up with the loss of firepower your fleet is suffering with each succesive turn.
I had better luck in turn 2 thanks to closing the range and getting StF! off against one of the ships (I had it set up for a 2+ against two ships but rolled a 1 on one of them). I managed to put HARMs on every ship in the Minbari fleet. Unfortunately, by then the Minbari player had managed to destroy two Hyperions (blew one up in a single CF salvo from the Sharlin without even needing a Crit), which greatly restricted my firepower. By that point, the most the HARM Stealth was able to do was buy a few ships another turn. By turn 3, I had 2 Hermes, 1 Hyperion, and 1 Omega left to his Sharlin and 3 Tinashi, all of which I'd only managed to scratch. In 3 turns he tanked 2 Saggitarius, 2 Hyperions, 2 Hermes, and an Oracle.
I have to agree on the splitting firepower. While the non-Minbari player is plinking away at the Minbari ships with mini-salvo's that do at most 3 or 4 damage a turn, the Minbari fleet blowing away at least one ship a turn. In the end, unless you've got nothing but triple damage weapons, the splitting fire tactic just can't keep up with the loss of firepower your fleet is suffering with each succesive turn.
I figured as much.
I am going to give it a try today though and see if my experience mirrors yours. I have a feeling it will. I've been following these posts for a while and so far you seem the one person on these forums whose experience and observations about the game seem are closest to mine.
Anyway I'll post what happens this evening (that's pacific coast time so while I'm not good with time zones I think that makes it next Tuesday for half of you).
I am going to give it a try today though and see if my experience mirrors yours. I have a feeling it will. I've been following these posts for a while and so far you seem the one person on these forums whose experience and observations about the game seem are closest to mine.
Anyway I'll post what happens this evening (that's pacific coast time so while I'm not good with time zones I think that makes it next Tuesday for half of you).
One thing that isn't on your list are Breaching pods. I've mentioned it before and I haven't had the chance to try it out yet, but its the last thing I can think of for you to try. I've said it before and I'll say it again. On the surface, it seems suicidal but it just might work.
Obsidian,
Admittedly, we haven't tried pods for the very reason you mention, it just seems suicidal. Given the functionality and survivability of fighters vs pods, the fighters just look like a better investment.
Again, I'd be pleased as punch if somebody would prove me wrong.....
Admittedly, we haven't tried pods for the very reason you mention, it just seems suicidal. Given the functionality and survivability of fighters vs pods, the fighters just look like a better investment.
Again, I'd be pleased as punch if somebody would prove me wrong.....
As soon as I get the chance I'll be trying it. I kind of wonder how many people out there have even bothered with the new boarding action rules. It isn't something I think about doing during most games and the conditions needed to pull it off are pretty restricted so I can see how people can just blow right past it.
Yeah, we haven't really done it much.
Tal posted a question on the main board that got me thinking about splitting fire and slow loading weapons. Normally, if a slow loading weapon misses its Stealth roll, it's no harm no foul. The weapon can try again next turn.
If you split fire however, there's a good chance that you'll make the Stealth roll against some targets and fail it against others. My assumption would be that if any of the AD from a slow load weapon are used (i.e. pass the Stealth roll), then the weapon has to sit out a turn per the normal slow load rule. If that's true, then splitting fire is probably the last thing you'd want to do with a slow load weapon.
Tal posted a question on the main board that got me thinking about splitting fire and slow loading weapons. Normally, if a slow loading weapon misses its Stealth roll, it's no harm no foul. The weapon can try again next turn.
If you split fire however, there's a good chance that you'll make the Stealth roll against some targets and fail it against others. My assumption would be that if any of the AD from a slow load weapon are used (i.e. pass the Stealth roll), then the weapon has to sit out a turn per the normal slow load rule. If that's true, then splitting fire is probably the last thing you'd want to do with a slow load weapon.
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
I defeated a 5 point battle fleet in a standard Call to Arms scenario a couple of weeks ago with Earthforce. We had the following ships:
EA:
1 Warlock (w/flash missiles)
1 Apollo (w/flash missiles)
2 Nova
1 Delphi
1 Hyperion
Minbari:
1 Sharlin
1 Ashinta
2 Tigara
2 Torotha
1 Troligan
Turn 1:
The Delphi succeeds in bringing Scanners to Full on the Sharlin. However, the Apollo misses the stealth roll. The Warlock could not boresight the Sharlin, but did boresight the Troligan. Unfortunately, it also missed the stealth roll. No other firing of any consequence by the EA.
Minbari fire and vaporize the Hyperion (with the Sharlin) and lightly damage the Warlock with Neutron Lasers from the Troligan.
Turn 2:
One huge bonus...EA got the initiative. Once again, the Delphi locks onto the Sharlin, plus my fighters are able to achieve a scanner lock on it as well. Sharlin moved early in the turn (a mistake on the part of the Minbari), so the Warlock was boresighted. Warlock fires and hits with missiles and GOD cannons. Apollo Concentrated All Firepower on the Sharlin. It also makes the stealth roll and his with like 7 flash missiles. Significant damage to the Sharlin. Smaller ships all shoot at the Ashinta and score slight damage.
Minbari destroy a Nova and shoot up the other one pretty good.
Turn 3:
Again...Delphi and fighters assist with lock on the Sharlin. The Apollo fires again with CAF at the Sharlin and scores 8 hits. Sharlin...due to some decent crits...goes BOOM. Warlock manages to shoot and destroy a Tigara with help from some fighters to lock on. Lucky shot immobilizes the Ashinta.
Minbari fire is still pretty devastating. The other Nova is gone...the Delphi is shot at...but protected by stealth against the Ashinta's fire.
Turn 4 to 7:
Remaining Minbari ships begin to disengage by All Ahead Full! I close with, and begin a boarding action against the lightly damaged, but immobile Ashinta. This action takes several turns to resolve during which time I take a significant amount of damage to my Warlock from the Ashinta firing at it. For whatever reason, my opponent cannot make a damage control roll to get that Ashinta moving.
So how did I win? Pure luck on the stealth rolls. I made the ones that counted...plus I got the inititative on one very critical turn.
Plus, I am not sure that the Minbari leaving at that point was the best call...but it was not a bad one either.
The Minbari have WAY too much firepower. But, I think the survivability of their ships seems about right.
EA:
1 Warlock (w/flash missiles)
1 Apollo (w/flash missiles)
2 Nova
1 Delphi
1 Hyperion
Minbari:
1 Sharlin
1 Ashinta
2 Tigara
2 Torotha
1 Troligan
Turn 1:
The Delphi succeeds in bringing Scanners to Full on the Sharlin. However, the Apollo misses the stealth roll. The Warlock could not boresight the Sharlin, but did boresight the Troligan. Unfortunately, it also missed the stealth roll. No other firing of any consequence by the EA.
Minbari fire and vaporize the Hyperion (with the Sharlin) and lightly damage the Warlock with Neutron Lasers from the Troligan.
Turn 2:
One huge bonus...EA got the initiative. Once again, the Delphi locks onto the Sharlin, plus my fighters are able to achieve a scanner lock on it as well. Sharlin moved early in the turn (a mistake on the part of the Minbari), so the Warlock was boresighted. Warlock fires and hits with missiles and GOD cannons. Apollo Concentrated All Firepower on the Sharlin. It also makes the stealth roll and his with like 7 flash missiles. Significant damage to the Sharlin. Smaller ships all shoot at the Ashinta and score slight damage.
Minbari destroy a Nova and shoot up the other one pretty good.
Turn 3:
Again...Delphi and fighters assist with lock on the Sharlin. The Apollo fires again with CAF at the Sharlin and scores 8 hits. Sharlin...due to some decent crits...goes BOOM. Warlock manages to shoot and destroy a Tigara with help from some fighters to lock on. Lucky shot immobilizes the Ashinta.
Minbari fire is still pretty devastating. The other Nova is gone...the Delphi is shot at...but protected by stealth against the Ashinta's fire.
Turn 4 to 7:
Remaining Minbari ships begin to disengage by All Ahead Full! I close with, and begin a boarding action against the lightly damaged, but immobile Ashinta. This action takes several turns to resolve during which time I take a significant amount of damage to my Warlock from the Ashinta firing at it. For whatever reason, my opponent cannot make a damage control roll to get that Ashinta moving.
So how did I win? Pure luck on the stealth rolls. I made the ones that counted...plus I got the inititative on one very critical turn.
Plus, I am not sure that the Minbari leaving at that point was the best call...but it was not a bad one either.
The Minbari have WAY too much firepower. But, I think the survivability of their ships seems about right.
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Yes, the Neutron Lasers did the lion's share of the damage.
If there had been two Tinashis instead of the lighter ships I am not sure I would have survived.
If there had been two Tinashis instead of the lighter ships I am not sure I would have survived.
Lawdog,
I think that can really help us focus the discussion. I've also found that the Beam weapons are the big killers, and the difference between a Troligan's 2AD and a Tinashi's 4AD is substantial.
It's also important to note that most of the Raid or below ships taken aren't pure mini-beam ships. They have weapons that don't ignore Interceptors, which means the other races can bring some of their own defenses into play.
I'll see if I can't set up a few test games to see how the Minbari balance out if we pretend the Tinashi just don't exist.
I think that can really help us focus the discussion. I've also found that the Beam weapons are the big killers, and the difference between a Troligan's 2AD and a Tinashi's 4AD is substantial.
It's also important to note that most of the Raid or below ships taken aren't pure mini-beam ships. They have weapons that don't ignore Interceptors, which means the other races can bring some of their own defenses into play.
I'll see if I can't set up a few test games to see how the Minbari balance out if we pretend the Tinashi just don't exist.
I could have sworn that boarding actions are resolved in the end phase of the turn in which they are initiated. So you launch your 6 troops over onto the Ashinata who defend with their 4 troops. In the end phase of the turn you roll through the attackers and defenders until one side is defeated.
If anyone is interested, I put together a little program specifically for resolving boarding actions. Could be useful in speeding up this portion of the game.
You're going to have to find this one for me as I don't believe you are correct.
Lawdog1700
Mongoose
Obsidian, you are correct. I killed all of the Ashinta's troops in the end phase of the turn I boarded. However, you then start working on the crew. You have to kill all the crew before the ship is considered captured.
