Those pesky Minbari

[Karhedron]

its not like they used it THAT often in the show (In the Beginning and i think thats it) so it cant be that common if we only see it ONCE

Victory and Excalibur also used their AJPs offensively in Call to Arms but I agree it certainly didn't seem to be a common tactic.

 

[Silvereye]

... just that the Centauri have what it takes to put them in their place.

Yep, I have found you can build a fleet to do anything with Centauri. Simply because they have so many competent ships to choose from. As long as you choose the right ones of course.

Interestingly, when we went through all of the other races, EA, Narn, Abbai, Drazi, Brakiri, Vree, even ISA, Shadows, and Vorlons, they were all pretty evenly matched. Big, hard-hitting weapons like missiles or beams were all restricted by range, boresight, or slow-loading, and Hull and Damage were pretty equivalent. The two exceptions were Minbari and Centauri.

Which lets face it are regarded as the two oldest and most advanced of the younger races.

It is the big hard-hitting weapons that usually come with too many drawbacks - mainly slow-loading; due to the fact you cannot guarentee a lock-on and waste your shots. You should be able to set up boresights with no real problems (I have found Range to be not such a problem). Raw firepower and lots of it tends to help. Avioki's, Nova's etc... You really need to think a little out of the box from time to time though, just to add a nice surprise.

Minbari ships can't really afford to go on CF!

Oh yes they can, and many should in the first turn or two. If you have the right long range ships (i.e. those with the overly heavy AD of Neutron Lasers in the front arc), use a real slow advance to linger where your Stealth works for you and use those honking big lasers to abuse any ships in your front arc.

 

[B5freak]

Silvereye, thanks for the feedback. Agree completely on the fluff aspect of the Centauri and the Minbari.

Here's some thoughts on your comments:

Agree that the Minbari can use CF! while the enemy is outside 18". Once they're inside 18" however, especially if enemy ships are in the Port, Starboard, or Aft as well as Fore arcs, can the Minbari really afford to stay on CF!? My point was simply that the tactical options for the Centauri are somewhat simplified since pretty much everything is Fore and they have the numbers advantage.

I'm not sure I understand your comment on the heavy-hitters. My point was that most of the races' big guns have a drawback, which helps to balance the forces and give each a distinctive feel.

For example, the Omega has 4 boresighted beam, super AP, DD AD with a 30" range whereas the Avioki has twice as many dice through the entire Foreward fire arc, but are limited by no Super AP, shorter range, and slow loading. The Avioki are going to take a pounding for a turn or two before they can bring their own guns into range, but that's why they've got more damage and crew than the Omega. Both are Battle level and both are pretty well balanced against eachother. That pattern seems to repeat for each of the fleets except the Minbari and the Centauri.

 

[Pauly_D]

Interestingly, when we went through all of the other races, EA, Narn, Abbai, Drazi, Brakiri, Vree, even ISA, Shadows, and Vorlons, they were all pretty evenly matched. Big, hard-hitting weapons like missiles or beams were all restricted by range, boresight, or slow-loading, and Hull and Damage were pretty equivalent. The two exceptions were Minbari and Centauri.

that is at raid level tho
Minbari are awful at Patrol level and Centauri lack ships at War Level

 

[Enteralterego]

For the record I'd like to see the Ancients have a bit more of an edge against the stealth, but you can't have everything..... :wink:

DW

The shodows aren't too bad against them, particularly for bypassing stealth. Pair off a shadow ship with a scout and what happens? The scout adds one to the roll to beat the stealth, as does the fact that they're shadows meaning the shadow ship needs only 3+ to beat the stealth of a Sharlin. Get within 10" and it's 2+......then the Minbari suck heavy beam death.

 

[tybalt]

Agree that the Minbari can use CF! while the enemy is outside 18". Once they're inside 18" however, especially if enemy ships are in the Port, Starboard, or Aft as well as Fore arcs, can the Minbari really afford to stay on CF!? My point was simply that the tactical options for the Centauri are somewhat simplified since pretty much everything is Fore and they have the numbers advantage.

Every Ship with good AD Double/Triple Damage Super AP beam can afford CF! The Math is easy: Beam Weapons with TD/Super AP do more damage than all other weapons together. The goal in CTA is not attacking many ships and do most damage. The goal is to destroy and cripple ships and make them useless for the next round! Most secondary weapons hit on a 6+. Makes on 20AD statisticly under 4 hits per turn! A 4AD beam weapon with triple damage does 2 hits +1,5 hits doe to beam rules. thats 9 points damage against under 4! With CF you have good chances enhancing hith of your DD TD weapons to a maximum. with 4 hits on beam td super ap weapons you got statisticly 3 more hits with beam weapons! 7x3=21 Damage! Critical hits not included. Means every round the enemy will lose at least 2 battleships with CF! (of course he will fire back)

 

[Obsidian]

The shodows aren't too bad against them, particularly for bypassing stealth. Pair off a shadow ship with a scout and what happens? The scout adds one to the roll to beat the stealth, as does the fact that they're shadows meaning the shadow ship needs only 3+ to beat the stealth of a Sharlin. Get within 10" and it's 2+......then the Minbari suck heavy beam death.

I think your math is off. A Sharlin has Stealth 5+. 5 - 1 (Shadow Superior Tech) - 1 (Scout roll) = 3, not 2. When the range is over 10", you add one to the stealth value so the math works out like this 5 + 1(over 10") - 1(Shadow Superior Tech) - 1 (Scout Roll) = 4.

 

[Obsidian]

Bringing up a point from one of my previous posts that may have been buried. The more I look at it, the more breaching pods seem like a good idea against the minbari. For starters, you know they are going to be limited in the number of ships they bring as they are limited by their PL choices. Secondly, you get to roll 1 die per troop on board the ship at the end of each round without having to worry about stealth rolls. you'll be wiping out crew and potentially causing criticals that can cause some serious problems. On top of that, you get double the victory points for the ship which makes a huge difference in those scenarios that use them.

I'm still trying to get the time for a Minbari/EA rematch at 5 Battle Points, but I think the next time will include all of the previously mentioned tactics plus the breaching pods.

 

[Fin-man]

The shodows aren't too bad against them, particularly for bypassing stealth. Pair off a shadow ship with a scout and what happens? The scout adds one to the roll to beat the stealth, as does the fact that they're shadows meaning the shadow ship needs only 3+ to beat the stealth of a Sharlin. Get within 10" and it's 2+......then the Minbari suck heavy beam death.

Let me make sure I have this right. A Sharlin has a stealth of 5+, or 6+ if outside of 10". Shadows subtract one (ancients), and the shadow scouts subtract one more - if they make their crew quality check. A shadow fighter (if they live long enough) could subtract one more. That would make a 3+ outside of 10", and a 2+ inside 10".

That sounds great - If they have more scouts (not too hard with shadows), AND make the crew quality check(s), AND be within 10" then the above-mentioned Sharlin would only have a 2+ stealth save. It will be tricky, but worth the risk. I'll have to try and pull that off the next time I face off against Minbari.

 

[Obsidian]

Let me make sure I have this right. A Sharlin has a stealth of 5+, or 6+ if outside of 10". Shadows subtract one (ancients), and the shadow scouts subtract one more - if they make their crew quality check. A shadow fighter (if they live long enough) could subtract one more. That would make a 3+ outside of 10", and a 2+ inside 10".

Yes, your math is correct. One thing to remember is that the Scanners to full action is resolved during the movement phase. If the fighter flight makes the roll and then gets blown up, the reduction in stealth still counts.

 

[lastbesthope]

I'll say again that I would limit AJP o being used to attack ships that are stationary for any reason.

The ships on the map are actually always in motion, unless immobilized.

I'd also require a ship on the board, maybe a scout. You need to know the exact position of the enemy, not a best guess.

yeah having to have a scout would seem fair, if no scout on board then it should use normal jump point rules, its not like they used it THAT often in the show (In the Beginning and i think thats it) so it cant be that common if we only see it ONCE

Well the flyer has no Scout trait in SFOS and it seems to direct the Minbari OK in ITB.

As someone else pointed out, I don't think there are any scenarios when the entire fleet starts in hyperspace, except for the odd one where the deployment zones or jump points are predefined so that restricts the use of AJP to start with.

LBH

 

[Enteralterego]

I think your math is off. A Sharlin has Stealth 5+. 5 - 1 (Shadow Superior Tech) - 1 (Scout roll) = 3, not 2. When the range is over 10", you add one to the stealth value so the math works out like this 5 + 1(over 10") - 1(Shadow Superior Tech) - 1 (Scout Roll) = 4.

Let me make sure I have this right. A Sharlin has a stealth of 5+, or 6+ if outside of 10". Shadows subtract one (ancients), and the shadow scouts subtract one more - if they make their crew quality check. A shadow fighter (if they live long enough) could subtract one more. That would make a 3+ outside of 10", and a 2+ inside 10".

That sounds great - If they have more scouts (not too hard with shadows), AND make the crew quality check(s), AND be within 10" then the above-mentioned Sharlin would only have a 2+ stealth save. It will be tricky, but worth the risk. I'll have to try and pull that off the next time I face off against Minbari.

Yeah, Obsidian is right, I was taking into account using fighters at the same time as scouts but forgot to mention that. I need to think my posts through better

Still, when using a combined fleet, I think the Shadows are about as good as it gets against the Minbari. Lots of scouts (which aren't bad ships in their own right), fighters (though dog fight fodder for nials), and a big nasty gun on their main capital ships.

I haven't actually tried it myself, but I think it's worth a shot. As the Shadows are one of the few races to have an initiative advantage over the Minbari, you can try and keep the fighters out of trouble that bit more.

 

[B5freak]

Playing with and without access to Hyperspace will make a tremendous difference. If the Shadow cruisers and fighters can phase in on top of the Minbari, the Minbari are going to have a very bad day. If the Shadow's have to fly into the Minbari's Neutron Lasers for a turn or two however, that's gonna hurt.

 

[Dralafi]

I dont think that Shadow ships generate a gate. It doesnt say that a gate isnt placed when they enter realspace but it does say no jump point is place during entry to hyperspace.

Assuming that no counter is place then no damage is dealt either as without a counter there can not be a front arc. Hmm, interesting question this brings to mind.

Also, shadows are only allowed to use Initiate Jump Point special action, no other.

 

[Obsidian]

I dont think that Shadow ships generate a gate. It doesnt say that a gate isnt placed when they enter realspace but it does say no jump point is place during entry to hyperspace.

Assuming that no counter is place then no damage is dealt either as without a counter there can not be a front arc. Hmm, interesting question this brings to mind.

They don't. Shadows sorta phase into real space from hyperspace. I don't think he was referring to Jump point damage though, he was referring to the havoc a Shadow Ship dropped into the middle of a Minbari formation could wreak.

Also, shadows are only allowed to use Initiate Jump Point special action, no other.

True, but don't forget about Superb Manueverability. In general, the distance between starting fleets is about 30". It varies from scenario to scenario, but this is about the average. Anyway, the point is that using Superb Manueverability, a Shadow Ship can move 12" straight ahead and bring its MSB to bear on anything within an 18" radius, thus closing the firing range gap in a single turn.

 

[B5freak]

Dralafi,

Obsidian was correct, I was referring to dropping a Shadow into the middle of a Minbari formation. Because Shadows don't open jump points, you don't have the usual 1-turn warning that they're coming. They just show up wherever you want them. The fighters can do the same thing. The net result is that your Cruiser can start the game within 10" and outside of the Neutron Lasers' fire arcs. If you win initiative, it also means that you can force the Minbari fighters to move first and then pop in all of your fighters in range to either attack or perform StF!.

That brings up a question, can Shadow and Vorlon fighters use StF!? Their rules state that their vessels are restricted to certain special actions, and StF! isn't one of them.

 

[Zee Zee]

The Beauty of the game is there isn't a point system?
OK if there isnt a points system why are most tournament 5 war points,
What you have is still a points system all be it that it warships have classifacation of War,Battle,Raid,Skirmish & patrol does not detract from the fact they have a numerical value,the only difference between this and traditional points systems is that value changes depending on the level of the scenario,but its still a points system as the player has to select ships up to that value.
If it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck,walks like a duck and lays eggs,in my book its a ruddy duck!

 

[Dralafi]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Full scanners for fighters to drop stealth that was discussed above. And its no more devastating to drop shadows among minbari then anything else, just that shadows dont do damage coming in.

 

[B5freak]

Yes, but the point is that the Minbari won't be able to do any damage either. If the Shadows can bring their beams to bear while denying the Minbari their own beams, that's a major advantage for the Shadows.

Also, provided Shadow fighters are actually allowed to use StF!, there's nothing to stop Shadow fighters from performing StF! in the same turn that they appear since Shadows don't have to use a Special Action when moving from Hyperspace to Realspace.

Given the posibility of +1 from the Scout, +1 from StF!, their own innate +1, and immediately engaging from within 10", a Shadow cruiser could potentially knock a Sharlin's Stealth down to a 2+ and nail it with the Slicer before the Sharlin has a chance to do anything. Take 2 or more Shadow scouts, and you've got a chance of getting both the +1 against Stealth and having the cruiser re-roll all it's AD.

 

[Karhedron]

Given that their weapons ranges are fairly low, Shadows will always benefit from a scenario that allows them to start off with ships in Hyperspace. It will work well against anyone, not just Minbari.