The volume of weapons

[Captain Jonah]

Details please! What is the canonical position? As someone only familiar with MonT I have had some problems with Particle Beams (see earlier thread on the topic!). One of the issues has been the compartively low tech that particle beams become available. Hope it wasn't all a misprint!

In my mind someone either confused the "available tech level" for the general technology of Particle Accelerator weapons with the specific tech required for the compact versions, or that they thought the weapon tables needed a kick-arse beam weapon in basic.

Yep, problem is it not only kicks backside at low tech levels, it keeps kicking at the higher tech levels as well.

Pbeams are better at tech 8 bays than fusions are at tech 12, more damage and better range. The extra price is nothing when compared to the overall cost of the ship the weapons are on.

MonT doesn't use varied stats for tech levels which is part of the problem

If a weapon does damage as stated at its tech level then does 1D more every +3 techs a tech 15 pulse laser comes in at 4D against a tech 15 Pbeam doing 5D at much longer range, the Pbeam is still powerfull but not overwhelmingly so.

Weapon...........Tech for +1D ............ Tech for +2D...........Tech for +3D
Laser.....................10................................13.........................16
Pbeam...................11................................14
Missiles...................9.................................12..........................15
Plasma...................13...............................16
Fusion....................15

The extra tech level abilities apply still for making a lower tech item at a higher tech level so a tech 15 ship with Laser-13s is +2 levels for possible abilities. Makes missiles something more than paint scratchers as well, tech 15 missiles doing 4D become something to worry about not ignore.

Prices will probably need to be modified to reflect the smaller number available from high tech factories and the more expensive bits involved. Possibly +50% on base price for each tech step so pulse-13 will cost Mcr1 and building it at tech 15 for the +2 tech will cost 125% as normal. Missiles cost an extra 150% at tech 15 and so on.

Helps with the levels or armour on ships as well. A high tech 4D laser will scratch the paint on a battleship but it should scare the stuffing out of a stroppy merchant with 4 whole points of armour. Makes those tech 15 Imperial gazelles and PCs a lot more capable against civi ships. :twisted:

Plus it allows your players to upgrade to higher tech weapons, gives them something to spend surplus cash on or get higher tech weapons as campaign rewards etc.

 

[locarno24]

MonT doesn't use varied stats for tech levels which is part of the problem

Actually, it sort of does - this is where the weapon traits in High Guard come into play:

a +1 Tech weapon can, for example, pack High Yield, which whilst not as devastating as +1 dice certainly gives the weapon a bit more teeth.

The system tops out at +3 tech (usually Accurate and High Yield for me), but by that point you really will notice the difference in the gun's performance. TL 10 pulse lasers with these upgrades actually become quite dangerous - their accuracy DM is reduced and with 2D6 and no possibility of rolling a '1', even light warships will know they've been shoved.

The particle beam is a bit...awesome, I must admit. Compared to the fusion bay, which at 4 TLs above should be science fiction to the people with the particle beam. Meson weaponry, I get. Ignoring armour is scary.

 

[BP]

Yep - P-Beams with TL upgrades are even more unbalanced...

 

[phavoc]

Lasers and standard missiles would be basically available to any ship owner, so long as they didn't have like 'Pirate' stamped on their forehead.

Anything else I would say would be thought as more military-type weapons. Privateers would probably get access to a better weapons, as would licensed mega-corp protection ships and system defense forces.

True military gear, like particle beams, plasma and fusion weaponry, along with torpedoes (and of course any sort of nuclear weapon) would be restricted to military forces only.

So while players might somehow get access to particle beams, they would run the risk of discovery and possible arrest/impoundment if they get boarded or searched by customs or system police ships. So their quest for weaponry would be quickly followed by their quest for spare parts to maintain the said weapons.

At least doing it that way would keep players (and not a few pirates) from having truly devestating weapons. Plus it gives the game master some interesting threads to interject into campaigns.

Captain - "You broked the particle cannons AGAIN??? Do you know hard it is to get parts for those??"

Gunner - "Oh, don't worry Cap'n. I've got Streetwise-3, so that -4DM to find and purchase illegal weapons will be a breeze. What that there low law-level planet a couple jumps away. We'll be up an runnin in no time!"

 

[BP]

Ack - game mechanics in RP!

Brief rundown of how I handle practical 'legality' of starship weaponry -
- Weapons declaration requirements
- Standoff requirements from ports/populations/assets
- Boarding and safing (deactivation boot) of weapons

 

[rust]

Brief rundown of how I handle practical 'legality' of starship weaponry -
- Weapons declaration requirements
- Standoff requirements from ports/populations/assets
- Boarding and safing (deactivation boot) of weapons

Hmm ... my setting's planets use a very simple decision procedure:
1) If the ship is armed, it is clearly not a civilian vessel.
2) If it is government owned, it has to declare its intentions.
3) If it is not government owned, it is a legitimate target.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Lasers and standard missiles would be basically available to any ship owner, so long as they didn't have like 'Pirate' stamped on their forehead.

Anything else I would say would be thought as more military-type weapons. Privateers would probably get access to a better weapons, as would licensed mega-corp protection ships and system defense forces.

True military gear, like particle beams, plasma and fusion weaponry, along with torpedoes (and of course any sort of nuclear weapon) would be restricted to military forces only.

So while players might somehow get access to particle beams, they would run the risk of discovery and possible arrest/impoundment if they get boarded or searched by customs or system police ships. So their quest for weaponry would be quickly followed by their quest for spare parts to maintain the said weapons.

At least doing it that way would keep players (and not a few pirates) from having truly devestating weapons.

Unless a pirate has been caught he is just the same as another player.

End user licenses, yes we are licensed to buy those Pbeams, forgery/corruption rolls, here are the documents. The system of Weapon License classes restricts the Law Abiding only. As I said if you are going to be shot as a pirate being shot for owning a Pbeam while pirating isn't a threat.

Players who operate within the law and pirates or privateers who don't. Got a privateer paper from a world, customs there will not stop you with Pbeams.

Spare parts for a Pbeam, if you can get them at Tech 8 they can be bought anywhere and I doubt you buy a replacement particle emitter tube labeled weapon instead of one labeled research. Getting them comes down to refs but at tech 8 they are so easily available as to make any ban on buying them unenforceable, only customs searches will stop you and if you don't go through customs that is no worry.

As BP said the advantages apply equaly to all weapons, as the rules stand you can have a legal tech +3 pulse laser with high yield and accurate (oddly I do that as well ) rerolling ones with +1 to hit but short range and -2 pulse penalty or a Tech +3 Pbeam with accurate and High yield rerolling 1s and +1 to hit at long range. 3D rerolling ones and +1 to hit is a lot more capable than 2D rerolling ones and -1 to hit. Or take very high yield Pbeams and reroll ones and twos just to add insult to injury.

A tech 15 laser should be a damn sight more powerfull than a tech 7 laser, far more than reroling 1s on the dice. That was why I sugested upping the dice with tech levels. A 1D missile or laser is all but useless even rerolling ones. A 2D laser with short range is like bringing a knife to a gun fight, it may be a big knife but its still a gun fight

 

[AndrewW]

Lasers and standard missiles would be basically available to any ship owner, so long as they didn't have like 'Pirate' stamped on their forehead.

How about a skull and crossbones tattoo?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Lasers and standard missiles would be basically available to any ship owner, so long as they didn't have like 'Pirate' stamped on their forehead.

How about a skull and crossbones tattoo?

Along with a cyber parrot, a glow in the dark purple Mowhawk and answering to the name of john silver. Sounds like a player to me :roll:

Go to a cyber punk LRP game

 

[BP]

...Along with a cyber parrot, a glow in the dark purple Mowhawk and answering to the name of john silver. Sounds like a player to me :roll:

A player? Oh, you mean one of them fella's trying to pickup chicks. :lol:

 

[BP]

...
Hmm ... my setting's planets use a very simple decision procedure:
1) If the ship is armed, it is clearly not a civilian vessel.
2) If it is government owned, it has to declare its intentions.
3) If it is not government owned, it is a legitimate target.

IMTU, given pirates as a legitimate concern, civilian ships may be armed with turret weapons (even barbettes) - which are pop guns compared to the bay weapons and spinal mounts sported by the military types.

Bearing in mind that small ship weapons are, as a threat to a planet or highport, nothing compared to the mass kinetic potential of their ships!

Not to say it is legally ok for them to come within shooting range of populated or sensitive areas - but compared to system scales, even the big weapons are no big threat until they come 'relatively' close. Thus standoff distances for most systems and varying levels of tolerance (some equivalent to 4) If it is in 'their' space and armed, it is a legitamate target )

 

[rust]

IMTU, given pirates as a legitimate concern, civilian ships may be armed with turret weapons (even barbettes) ...

I might do the same if pirates would exist in my setting, but they are just
not plausible there - while there would be ships to attack, there is no mar-
ket for stolen ships or stolen cargo. And without any piracy to start with,
disallowing armed civilian ships seems a logical measure to prevent that
someone decides to become the first pirate in the region's history.

 

[zozotroll]

For a lot of reasons, in many traveller games, Pirates dont make sense. But most everybody I have ever played with more or less expects them to be there, so what the heck it is suposed to be a fun game after all.

As far as weapons, nothing like coming in at as high an acel as you can pull to really mess up a planet. Instead of a few particles, you have a whole ship. Makes a nice big splash.

 

[rinku]

All a pirate really needs to be able to do is avoid pursuit and dispose of cargo. The raider ship can hand off the loot to a pirate owned merchant ship, who takes it to market.

Jump drive gives you a nearly untraceable escape - even if there's only one system in range, you can pick and choose as to where in that system you arrive. Far gas giants and icy belts not convenient for most shipping are good places to refuel at. Extra fuel is also something a raider design or conversion would consider. Heck, you could even make a J-1 into empty space and lie low for a few weeks then jump back to the same system. No reason an organised pirate has to have a base near a star. Using a captured ship as a fuel tanker or depot is a basic trick, too.

Re kinetic attacks on planets/bases - pretty much *any* ship or boat (though maybe not distributed hull ones) has the ability to push a space rock into another orbit. Might take days, weeks or months to get the burn required, but that's no real hinderance. Illegal as hell, though (up there with megaton nukes).

 

[rust]

All a pirate really needs to be able to do is avoid pursuit and dispose of cargo.

Not necessarily. For example, today most real world pirates sell neither
the ships nor the cargoes, instead they demand a ransom for ships and
crews and usually ignore the cargo completely.

 

[rinku]

All a pirate really needs to be able to do is avoid pursuit and dispose of cargo.

Not necessarily. For example, today most real world pirates sell neither
the ships nor the cargoes, instead they demand a ransom for ships and
crews and usually ignore the cargo completely.

Good point. Change my comment to "dispose of assets" then

Easy enough for the pirates to stash the captured ship somewhere then transmit its location to the owners.

 

[BP]

...Re kinetic attacks on planets/bases - pretty much *any* ship or boat (though maybe not distributed hull ones) has the ability to push a space rock into another orbit. Might take days, weeks or months to get the burn required, but that's no real hinderance. Illegal as hell, though (up there with megaton nukes).

Actually, I was referring to simply ramming the ship into its target.

Unlike the space rock 'bullet', a ship can accelerate and change vectors - avoiding many means of defense and allowing it to 'attack' with little warning. The only real viable defense option is to latch-on/ram into the ship - simply blasting it (without total vaporization) can still leave undesirable shrapnel to contend with.

More paranoid/restricted systems will have a policy that requires 'taking the helm' from a standoff position, or at least a 'tug' policy that preemptively latches on to vessels that are allowed into nearby space, and require shuttling for all others.

BTW: No reason to exclude distributed hulls (maybe lower push if structurally weaker)...

 

[rust]

More paranoid/restricted systems will have a policy that requires 'taking the helm' from a standoff position, or at least a 'tug' policy that preemptively latches on to vessels that are allowed into nearby space, and require shuttling for all others.

My setting's Pandora colony is likely to employ a "port guide", at least for
all ships that intend to land anywhere else than the main starport. This of-
ficial would board the incoming ship in orbit and make sure that its pilot is
aware of the problems the weather of a water world can cause and obser-
ves all the safety regulations for "wilderness landings" or "wet landings".

 

[locarno24]

Bearing in mind that small ship weapons are, as a threat to a planet or highport, nothing compared to the mass kinetic potential of their ships!

True, but even legal 'civilian' weapons are pretty scary - sitting on the planetary surface, a ship with a couple of pulse lasers in a turret can waste every vehicle and building within direct line of sight disconcertingly quickly if it were to put its mind to it; the effective impact of a starship weapon is up there with pocket nukes....

 

[Captain Jonah]

All a pirate really needs to be able to do is avoid pursuit and dispose of cargo.

Not necessarily. For example, today most real world pirates sell neither
the ships nor the cargoes, instead they demand a ransom for ships and
crews and usually ignore the cargo completely.

But then most of todays pirates have a bit of trouble with the 24x7 news and satelites. If lloyds can be reached by phone to check on that cargo of korean cars that suddenly appeared for sale is stolen there is no market for stolen ships cargos. By having a country to hide in they are safe to ransom the ships because everyone knows where they are but no one wants to bomb the country flat to take them out, damn liberals would kick up a fuss :twisted:

When you can spend a few weeks jumping away from the system where you hit the ship and have a friendly forger or corupt customs type to forge the seals and documents it becomes much harder to detect that 20dtons of electrical parts is stolen instead of the other 200dtons of electrical parts that arrived that day.

As regards priates not working, done properly pirates work. The ones who come swooping in riding a corsair are the sterotype ones the navy hunts down. Pirates no one ever hears about, the ones who retire rich, are the smart ones. They are the ones who sneak agents into the starport admin offices, hack the customes files to spot the ships with good cargos and then slip them very slightly doctored jump programs. Since astrogators went the way of the dodo ship work out there own jump routes or pick them up from the starport. A jump plot which is 99.9999999% accurate will pass most checks unless a ship reruns its own plots and if they do that why buy a jump plot in the first place.

The doctored jump plot drops you a light week off target to where the real corsair and a cargo ship are waiting. Target jumps in and either surrenders or dies. No need to even fire at them as they will be long dead before they can reach safety. Not enough fuel to jump again (pick targets doing maximum jumps) and not enough fuel to spend weeks cruising to the planet.

If the target does have enough fuel then you take them down with weapons fire using those extended range Pbeams you have :twisted:

Loot the ships at your leisure or repair them and take them, dump the crew in life pods, it will take a week for the GK/SOS they sent to reach the planet and a week for help to jump back. Or kill the crews to avoid witnessess if you are of that sort of pirate.

Done properly you can grab several ships over the course of a week and be gone before help arrives. Pirates are like any other criminals, they will exist for as long as humanity exists. They just need to be a bit smarter than the clowns flying round in "corsairs" with shoot me i'm a pirate flags on the hulls.

In terms of flying ships into planets. Yep, one of the many reasons the Ine Gavar fanatics are so feared because if they could, they would.
Higher tech worlds you come in on a vector that will achieve impact and the deep submerged Meson spinals get some life target practice that week. Weapons designed to fight off battleships will make short work of most merchants. Many worlds will not have these but any rich, hitech, class A starport, military base, fortress worlds will. Orbital defences will also be in place to have a good go at you as well so its not going to be so easy, doable yes, easy no.

Shrapnel not a danger, multi ton crystaliron bits are a danger, but anything too big to burn up in the atmosphere will get lots of fire at it till it is small enough not to worry about. Orbital stations move, fixed satelites get destroyed. You get to be very popular for the rest of your short but exciting life.