The Return?
- Thread starter shotgun-toting chipmunk
- Start date
Burger said:
I would be lying if I said the same thought had not occured to me
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
you know what could be done is say take a standard hull at different levels. no weapons nothing. and then by using sort of hardpoints like those for space stations modify the ships to please.
it could be used for any environment and any setting a good easy generic thing. and would stay pretty balanced i reckon.
it could be used for any environment and any setting a good easy generic thing. and would stay pretty balanced i reckon.
There would always be people who break it. (ie. me )
Eg. how much would GEG cost? How much would Redundancy cost? They would need to be affordable enough for Drakh and Narn to buy. But my super-race would buy both, and become almost invulnerable, for the loss of say... some aft weapons? The combination of GEG + Redundancy would be greater than the sum of its parts. So balancing the points cost of GEG and Redundancy would be virtually impossible.
)Eg. how much would GEG cost? How much would Redundancy cost? They would need to be affordable enough for Drakh and Narn to buy. But my super-race would buy both, and become almost invulnerable, for the loss of say... some aft weapons? The combination of GEG + Redundancy would be greater than the sum of its parts. So balancing the points cost of GEG and Redundancy would be virtually impossible.
Burger said:There would always be people who break it. (ie. me
Yup :0
Burger said:
You've hit the nail on the head.
Also, points values can (or should) change between different races/fleets. The example I always give here is for SST. Warrior Bugs are dirt cheap and, for a bug player, they need to be. But if the MI had something with exactly the same stats it would need to be far more expensive as it would fill a hole in the MI force list (awesome close combat) that they otherwise fill with big guns and other rules. If they had access to warrior bugs at the same cost, they would be nigh on undefeatable.
This is why, incidentally, GW dropped their static formulae years ago (though they do sometimes use formulae for finding core costs during playtesting).
Of course, extending this argument, you should also have variable points costs when you take more of one particular thing. Using 40k as the example, one Land Raider is pretty good and worth the points. But three of them is downright mean and probably worth more than the value of three seperate ones.
But that way lies madness.
treknogeek
Mongoose
I think the balance could be achieved by making parts/items lists separate for each fleet. For example, EA would have very basic access to
GEG technology so a GEG1 would be just as expensive as GEG3 for Drakh. (I'm not suggesting that this is balance, just trying to make a point.) By making foreign technology more expensive (and perhaps adjusting the effectiveness as well) balance is achieved. I submit my SW mod with its modifications tables as a basic example of what I'm talking about. This way, it does not cost just 15pts for GEG for each race but the points can be adjusted for balance accordingly in the individual fleet upgrade lists.
GEG technology so a GEG1 would be just as expensive as GEG3 for Drakh. (I'm not suggesting that this is balance, just trying to make a point.) By making foreign technology more expensive (and perhaps adjusting the effectiveness as well) balance is achieved. I submit my SW mod with its modifications tables as a basic example of what I'm talking about. This way, it does not cost just 15pts for GEG for each race but the points can be adjusted for balance accordingly in the individual fleet upgrade lists.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
its pretty simple you just make the ones that would break it mutually exclusive.
Clanger
Mongoose
I think Red Brick's Fading Suns would rock as an ACTA game.
A lot of fleets involved.
5 Noble Houses, Church, Imperial and League for the Humans.The 2 main Barbarian Races Vuldrok and Kurgan Fleets. Symbiots, Vau for the Major Alien Races. Then a few ships for the other Alien Races (Ur-Obon and Ur-Ukari).
So that is a big selection of fleets 12 fleets minimum. Also it has a rich background.
Bonus would be that minis were produced for the Noble Armada game.
A lot of fleets involved.
5 Noble Houses, Church, Imperial and League for the Humans.The 2 main Barbarian Races Vuldrok and Kurgan Fleets. Symbiots, Vau for the Major Alien Races. Then a few ships for the other Alien Races (Ur-Obon and Ur-Ukari).
So that is a big selection of fleets 12 fleets minimum. Also it has a rich background.
Bonus would be that minis were produced for the Noble Armada game.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
Burger said:
are you saying a whitestars broken??? lol
anyway was just a suggestion that i thought may be able to work, you cant come up with a workable point system in 30 seconds on a forum. Like all things it requires care and attention. I just though it was a sensible idea the groundings for it are already down and it could work.
The problem will always be min maxing and people building the most efficient ships possible.
Matt has as good as implied that they're picking up a sci fi licence for a ship game, and I didn't know there was finally going to be a Star Trek clix game released (I'd heard rumours a couple of years ago).
So whatever happens I'll have some little ships to play with come Christmas. I'll pull out the old B5W rules and make people learn to play them, and damn well like it.
Matt has as good as implied that they're picking up a sci fi licence for a ship game, and I didn't know there was finally going to be a Star Trek clix game released (I'd heard rumours a couple of years ago).
So whatever happens I'll have some little ships to play with come Christmas. I'll pull out the old B5W rules and make people learn to play them, and damn well like it.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Heh, noNo. 1 Bear said:
But it has major drawbacks that balance it. In a generic point system those drawbacks wouldn't exist because you could spend points to remove them.How to build an invincible WS:
- First, to get some points back, reduce the secondary weapon to 1AD, lose the traits and make it SL. You can still CBD. In fact make it Aft facing, to provide protection from weapon arc loss crits.
- To get more points back, sell the flight computer, atmospheric and jump engine. Who uses them?
- With the points you saved, buy GEG 1 and interceptors 1. Maybe shields 1/1 too if you've got enough points.
- Spend a point to add a few more crew. WS often run out of crew, because self-repair doesn't get them back. So adding just a couple more will help you out a lot. Every 1 crew you buy is multiplied by AA, dodge, GEG, interceptors and shields.
Peasant!
That's the real killer. Making a points cost for a single rule/weapon/hull isn't hard, but it's the interaction between special rules that throws everything out of whack.
How much for Hull 6?
How much for Interceptors?
You can only do a fair assessment of that based on how likely you are to have beam weapons shot at you. Which - in a build-what-the-hell-you-like environment is almost impossible for the game designer to judge....
How much for hull 6 is wrong question.
It should be 'how much for hull 6 with 40 damage'. Or better 'How much for hull 6 with 40 damage, 12 speed and agile 2/45 turns'. Of course cost of shields / interceptors should vary depending on hull.
The point-tables become a bit complex and multidimentional. And we haven't started checking the weapons yet..
It should be 'how much for hull 6 with 40 damage'. Or better 'How much for hull 6 with 40 damage, 12 speed and agile 2/45 turns'. Of course cost of shields / interceptors should vary depending on hull.
The point-tables become a bit complex and multidimentional. And we haven't started checking the weapons yet.
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