The NEXT STEP: Maps & Minis

[Mark A. Siefert]

Um, Mark? Wipe your chin, your froth is getting everywhere .

Some of us "froth" because we give a damn.

I'm so sorry you don't.

 

[Mark A. Siefert]

OK, maybe that was a little heavy. I'm sorry.

I JUST HATE COLLECTIBLE BENDY FIGS! For me, the modeling and painting portions of the gaming hobby are part of the fun. I love showing off a great paint job or being able to kit bash a unique figure, then using it in a game I like. The pre-paints rob me of a lot of that enjoyment.

Now I can certainly agree with some quality hard plastic figures, like what we've seen from GW and what we're now seeing coming out from Perry and Victrix.

 

[crazy_cat]

For me, the modeling and painting portions of the gaming hobby are part of the fun.

We're never going to agree on this. Ever. For me these aren't part of my hobby (RPGs) at all - I like plastic prepainted minis and have no interest in or use for metal, or partially assembled, or unpainted minis.

Mongoose should make whatever they think will sell best based on the evidence they have, and then let the consumer decide.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I don't mind plastic figs; while I like metal minis and would buy them, I have next to no interest in actually painting them, and have less resources. So plastic figs would be a god-there-is-no-godsend for me.

Of course, you could make minis and have them in sets that aren't randomized...

 

[Imperator58]

Well, it'll probably come down to economics.
I think the LotR plactic minis do pretty well - I mean, they keep making more of 'em, but then again LotR is largely a sort of wargame. I know Mongoose scrapped it's Starship Troopers line and WAS going to transition to prepainted plastic - but that whole project seems to have fizzled. So, while I'd personally LOVE plastic box sets of a dozen Zhodani or Vargr, I just dunno if it'll materialize. It really seems that even with the occasional naysayer, that prepainteds are what pays the bills these days.

 

[klingsor]

I think on the whole I agree with Mark, but I think the collectable figures do have their place - cheap and cheerful figures you can use for RPGs to prevent arguments over where everyone is and because some RPGs now seem to need them to run combat properly (D. & D. I am looking at you). I would use them but they do not excite me the way metal or hard plastic figures do for wargaming. Partly I think I am being a bit of a miniature snob as well as old fashioned. Also mean, the AT-43 figures looked good enough to use, better than I could have painted them, but they are so expensive!

I think we are all getting a little carried away. There is no chance of Mongoose doing the randomised, bendy miniature route with Traveller. At best we will see a few sets of metal figures and ships.

 

[zozotroll]

Go find some minis from the 70s or early 80s. They are much poorer sculpts than the current plastics. And looking at some of my painting efforts from then, the pre-paints are often better than me.

As for not careing, bovine feces. I care a great deal. but I dont agree with you. Sorry that makes me stupid and uncareing in your book.

 

[Sturn]

Metal vs. Plastic Mini Comparison w/Pictures!

Ok, someone accused some of us of not caring about minis because we were reporting the benefits of plastics. The exact reason we are taking the time to post here, is because we do care. So, I took some more of my time to try to make my previous points more clear. I started gaming around 1980 and its been my main hobby since.


First, let's compare two knights.

One on the left is an old metal figure I painted (showing my lack of skills) when I was younger without home, family, or major career. True artists do much better. It cost me a few hours of time and probably $2 or $3 US around 20 years ago. Factor in paint setup costs, and it cost me more.

The one on the right I grabbed a few years ago. It's a "common" so it is the worst example of the quality of a Wizards mini. Others are much better, I picked a poor quality one on purpose. As I posted this, 5 of this exact mini were available on ebay as cheap as $1 for a "buy it now" price. 100's are probably available if you include non-ebay stores.

The one on the right does bend if you try it, then pops back. The one on the left bends, then breaks. I carry the one on the left in a plastic mini box with foam lining I bought about 20 years ago for about $25 (present cost I assume would be more) that holds around 40. The one on the right I throw in a plastic tackle box for about $15 that can probably hold a 100 or more depending on how you sort them.


Crappy quality?

Here is a selection of mine from various genre's/manufacturers of pre-painted non-metal minis:

Making an army:

My Traveller Imperial Marines-

Note they are not painted. I grabbed these much later, after family, home, and career were more important. There are four of them. I got them bidding on ebay. If I recall right, the price was around $15 for the four. I just did another search. I couldn't find any quickly. Did see some cardboard Traveller Imperial Marines going for $18. :lol: 15mm Traveller minis are easier to find then 25mm, but still hard to get exactly what you want since few new ones are made.

My Star Wars Imperial Stormtroopers-

Got most of these a year or so ago. Picture shows an an entire platoon of 40 plus the Imperial Officer out front. I was able to get squad leaders, ion cannon gunners, heavy repeating blasters, and riflemen in various poses for each squad. Ebay has them for under $1. My FOMS (favorite online mini store) has these for around $1 each and free shipping if I purchased them all at once. So that's little more then $40 for 41 pre-painted figures. Compare that to around $15 for the 4 un-painted Marines (around $150 if you could ever find so many to make a similar platoon).

I do care about my minis and have been a gamer for most of my 40 year old life. I would love to see a line of pre-painted Traveller minis. Make them randomn, and it could be a money maker for Mongoose. Make them randomn, and an online market will be created where you can select what you want.

 

[Infojunky]

So, how about no official miniatures? Just cardboard hero's? That way you print them out in whatever scale/size you like?

That way we can quite arguing about it.

 

[Sturn]

That way we can quite arguing about it.

I just spent a ton of time to make a post that I would call discussing, comparing, debating, but not arguing. These aren't news forums. We post about things of interest and expect them to be discussed, not just deliver the news. :wink: Just keep it civil is all I care. I've learned much about the viewpoints of others on minis in this one thread. I also had to consider myself which I liked more due to this thread.

 

[EDG]

I just spent a ton of time to make a post that I would call discussing, comparing, debating, but not arguing.

And a very good post it was!

 

[zozotroll]

This is Traveller, we shall never quite argueing

 

[Imperator58]

No. These are SCI-FI GEEKS, we shall never quit arguing!!

 

[Mark A. Siefert]

So, I took some more of my time to try to make my previous points more clear.

Well, I hate to say it, but you wasted you're time because you didn't convince me in the least.

Crappy quality?

Ummmm... yes.

Compared to Reaper? Compared to Games Workshop? Compared to Wargames Foundry? Compared to Perry Bros? Compared to Copplestone?

Have you ever SEEN minatures from these companies? How can rationally compare cheap bendy-plastic figures with the quality work of any of the above companies?

I would love to see a line of pre-painted Traveller minis. Make them randomn, and it could be a money maker for Mongoose. Make them randomn, and an online market will be created where you can select what you want.

Well, I wouldn't. I refuse to buy bendy-plastic figures even if Mongoose had $100 bills hidden inside each booster pack.

I want to be able to buy the sort figures I want when I want them WITHOUT have to spend money on figures I don't want. Nor do I want to have to troll the eBay or so-called re-sellers and pay higher prices for so-called "rare" figures or spend the money for shipping and handling.

As I said earlier, I refuse to watch my favorite sci-fi RPG/wargame setting sink as low as D&D has.

 

[EDG]

As I said earlier, I refuse to watch my favorite sci-fi RPG/wargame setting sink as low as D&D has.

If you can't see the advantage of cheap, accessible, convenient, pre-painted, lightweight, easily transportable miniatures...

At least admit that your hate-on for them is entirely irrational, because those photos clearly show that the pre-painted plastic ones are nowhere near as "crappy" as you claim, and Sturn's listed a lot of reasons that it'd be advantageous to use them too. The thing you don't seem to get is that most people who are in favour of the "crap" plastic ones do not have the money or the time or the inclination or the talent (or any/all of the above) to paint and assemble "proper" miniatures. I'll say that in bold, in case you didn't get it first time: most people who are in favour of the "crap" plastic ones do not have the money or the time or the inclination or the talent (or any/all of the above) to paint and assemble "proper" miniatures. Now, hold that earth-shattering concept in your mind as I continue, and you may begin to understand why we prefer the "crap" minis.

I've been there and done this. I used to get WH40K and Epic minis, and I used to paint and assemble them. Now, I could perhaps go through the hassle of spending the money and time to buy the mini, and the glue, and the brushes, and the relevant paints beforehand, and then set aside some table space so I can lay all this stuff out and assemble and paint it, and then wait for the thing to dry after each painting run until it's fully done... or I could just buy a ready-made version in a box that's better painted than I could ever manage and be done with it. And the only reason I want the damn thing is to have some representation of whatever it is on the table (hell, I'd settle for coins or counters with numbered stickers on them. I have settled for that). Hm. It's a complete no-brainer which one of those is a more effective and efficient use of my time and money - I wouldn't hesitate to go the pre-painted route.

That's not to say (unlike you) that I can't see the lure of the opposing point of view. I've seen some awesome hand-painted mini work, and I envy the talent involved there... and I can see that the people who do that sort of thing take some pride in assembling and handpainting their minis and armies. It's an artistic thing, and I get that. And to be honest the minis I painted and assembled didn't look that bad... but they took a lot of time and fiddly paint work (especially on those little Epic guys) to do, and that's time that I don't have anymore. So I know it's not for me, but I can at least accept that the metal minis guys can be happy doing what they do - I've got nothing against the expensive minis being around for them to use.

But I know that if the metal GW-style minis were all that was available, I wouldn't get any minis, period, for all the reasons I stated above. At least now if I do want a reasonable representation of something on a board, I have the option of spending a pittance on a standalone plastic mini at the FLGS. If that option wasn't there, I'd settle for a counter or a bit of paper with an arrow on it, but there's no way I would fork out for an expensive metal mini that I had to paint and assemble myself.

 

[Sturn]

Well, I hate to say it, but you wasted you're time because you didn't convince me in the least.

Please be nice. You accused us of not caring, one of my motivations for the post was to show that we are discussing this matter because we do care. I'm sorry I didn't convince you "in the least", but that post was not just for Mark A. Siefert. So, no, I don't think I wasted my time due to possibly other open eyes that might be taking a gander.

Have you ever SEEN minatures from these companies? How can rationally compare cheap bendy-plastic figures with the quality work of any of the above companies?

Yep, have lots of them. I guess I should have thrown in another picture of the boxes in my basement of metals I have gathered through decades of RPGing. And the first picture was exactly that, a rational comparison.

I refuse to buy bendy-plastic figures......

Did you read the part in my post about how they bend, don't break, and are more easily kept and stored? Why is bendy so bad? The parts don't flop around while sitting on my game maps.

I want to be able to buy the sort figures I want when I want them WITHOUT have to spend money on figures I don't want.

Did you read the part in my post about how I bought these examples without spending money on figures I don't want?

.........or spend the money for shipping and handling.

Did you read the part in my post about not paying for shipping and handling. If you buy one figure at a time, sure that is a problem. I have never bought just one and most big e-bay salers or non-ebay sites have methods of free shipping, as I mentioned in my post.

As I said earlier, I refuse to watch my favorite sci-fi RPG/wargame setting sink as low as D&D has.

How is bringing loads of quality (from my viewpoint) miniatures to gaming tables across the world sinking to a low point? It's helped countless game sessions in my opinion. It's brought countless new RPGers to the table, something that is sorely needed in the days of mmorpgs.

EDIT: Wow, I'm done here, after looking at the next post and its baiting and inaccuracies to what I actually was conveying.

 

[Mark A. Siefert]

A statement I did apologize for. Do I have to take that back?

Did you read the part in my post about how they bend, don't break, and are more easily kept and stored?

I'm sorry, I guess all the malformed figures with bent weapons and bodies were just my imagination. And don't get me started on the poor paint jobs.

As for "storage?" Tossing your figures into a plastic bag like garbage is far from "storage."

Did you read the part in my post about how I bought these examples without spending money on figures I don't want?

As opposed to going to the FLGS and buying the figures you want, right away, without waiting days for a package that just might not come.

Did you read the part in my post about not paying for shipping and handling.

What part of I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO ORDER MY FIGURES FROM SOME SLOB/POTENTIAL CROOK ON THE INTERNET don't you understand? I believe in supporting my local store. Not someone I don't know and might not have a reason to trust.

How is bringing loads of quality (from my viewpoint) miniatures to gaming tables across the world sinking to a low point?

Games Workshop (for all of their faults) produces "quality" figures. The Perry Brothers produce quality figures. These badly-molded gumball-machine toys you've shown me and I've seen elsewhere are FAR FAR from "quality."

If there is anything I can't stand, it's catering to the lowest common denominator.

It's helped countless game sessions in my opinion.

Only for those too lazy to paint.

It's brought countless new RPGers to the table, something that is sorely needed in the days of mmorpgs.

Right, a bunch of ADD-ridden 10 to 12-year-olds who think role-playing games are WoW without the computer. That's the sort of "gamer" we don't need, thank you.

If that is the future of gaming, I rather see it die.

 

[zozotroll]

So those of us with jobs and familys and only limited gameing time are all "To lazy".

Well we cant all live in our parents basements with nothing to do but paint and model minis as we have no life at all out side of gameing. And never mind obviosly never even looking at some of the minis that are not metal, as then you would not make the totaly lignorant gum machine comment.

Is that enough stereotypes or do you wish to exchange some more?

 

[Mark A. Siefert]

So those of us with jobs and familys and only limited gameing time are all "To lazy".

Some of us can and and do pace ourselves. I meet with my friends at the FLGS Tuesdays to paint and model. Saturday nights I game.

(OT: And please don't play the "family" card on me, because it won't score any sympathy points. If there is any force for tyranny and domination in this world that fills me with loathing--besides government and religion--it's "the family.")

And never mind obviosly never even looking at some of the minis that are not metal, as then you would not make the totaly lignorant gum machine comment.

Ummm... excuse me, what gave you the idea I HAVEN'T looked at non-metal miniatures? I do believe I wrote that I would be more than happy with hard plastic figures ala GW or the old SST figs?

It's the pre-painted, rubberized "plastic" figs from WotC and HeroClix that I despise. I've seen them. I don't like them. I don't like the way they're molded. I don't like the material they're made of. I don't like that they difficult, if not impossible, to repaint, modify, or kit bash.

Is that enough stereotypes or do you wish to exchange some more?

Why, do you know any new ones?

 

[EDG]

Mark, calm the frak down. You are not even remotely helping your case by this irrational nonsense you're spouting. You haven't put forward a single rational argument in favour of your opinion - all you've done is froth and rave at how everybody else is wrong and you're right. And you clearly aren't reading what people are saying to you, all you're seeing is 'red mist' because... well, I have no idea why you're so het up over this. We're talking about miniatures here, it's not some bloody religious jihad.

I'm sorry, I guess all the malformed figures with bent weapons and bodies were just my imagination. And don't get me started on the poor paint jobs.

Actually I thought the plastic fig looked better than the metal one that Sturn showed in the photo.

As for "storage?" Tossing your figures into a plastic bag like garbage is far from "storage."

Um, no, it's storage actually. I for one appreciate not having to carry a heavy hardcase box with so much foam lining that it can hold only a fraction of the minis it could hold without that.

As opposed to going to the FLGS and buying the figures you want, right away, without waiting days for a package that just might not come.

The minis that cost about $10 a pop, instead of $1 or $2 like the plastic ones that you can often pick up on an individual basis anyway?

What part of I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO ORDER MY FIGURES FROM SOME SLOB/POTENTIAL CROOK ON THE INTERNET don't you understand?

OK, that's just ridiculous. People selling things on the internet are not "slobs" and you can easily tell the crooks apart from the legit guys because of the feedback ratings.

I believe in supporting my local store. Not someone I don't know and might not have a reason to trust.

That's up to you. But don't give us that crap about everyone on the internet being a "crook" or a "slob".

Games Workshop (for all of their faults) produces "quality" figures. The Perry Brothers produce quality figures. These badly-molded gumball-machine toys you've shown me and I've seen elsewhere are FAR FAR from "quality."

That's your opinion. For the rest of us who aren't hardcore purists like you, they're good enough.

If there is anything I can't stand, it's catering to the lowest common denominator.

If you want fancy metal minis, by all means go and buy them elsewhere - there's scifi ones around that you can adapt for Traveller. Nobody's stopping you from doing that. But those prepainted plastic minis that you so despise (with the passion of a thousand exploding suns, it seems) sell in large quantities for good reasons - because they're cheap and convenient and don't require spending hours of preparation to use. You may (and apparently do) hate that, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Only for those too lazy to paint.

Or, y'know, those who don't have the frakking time or money or talent for it.

Right, a bunch of ADD-ridden 10 to 12-year-olds who think role-playing games are WoW without the computer. That's the sort of "gamer" we don't need, thank you.

If that is the future of gaming, I rather see it die.

That's ugly, foetid elitist bullcrap, and you know it. Who the hell do you think you are to decide who is or isn't worthy to be a "gamer"?

I've heard enough of this crap.