The Neglected Ships

[Da Boss]

@ Da Boss: it's about 1/3 chance to make the ramming attempt, then 50/50 to succeed. But if it works, it's game over for the Omega right there. It's worth a try. And, as the Omega's player, do you want to take a total of 1/6 chance of losing the ship in one turn?

8D twin-linked will probably get 2 hits, but if the G'Quan is on CBD, it will probably ignore 1 point each of damage and crew.

Anyway, the Omega is probably one of the best Battle level ships out there. All the problems which a G'Quan will face would also annoy most other fleets' Battle ships. Try comparing the G'Quan (or its variants, especially the G'Lan) against the Lakara, Avioki, Tikrit or Raider Nova, for example. There are quite a lot of Battle level ships I'd rather face than an Omega.

hmm its a big gamble - I'd normally gamble (and have done) that he would not make it to be honest - if he did make it - both ships are dead in a great way Also if he tries ramming speed, he's not using any other SA

Like most Earth ships I find that the Omega is Average - good ship - but used to my Centauri and they are all exceptional - on a par with the Minbari, Vorlon and the revised Stalker.

A Tikrit that CAfs a G'Quan could annhiliate it at range 15 I would guess? 26 dice of AP double damage

The Raiders Nova is actually pretty good against some fleets (esp with two free refits from P+P) - be an interesting match up with the Q'Quan as it has similar damage/crew and nearly Centauri guns up close - plus of course interceptors.

I'd take a Avioki aginst a G'Quan - similar damage and arguebly better guns - range and arc.

Need to have a game of EA vs the Narn again to try out the Omega vs G'quan in a fleet action

 

[Foxmeister]

This is also a good time for the Omega to stop boresighting the G'Quan and turn away because if it doesn't, the G'Quan rams it next turn.

But if it works, it's game over for the Omega right there. It's worth a try. And, as the Omega's player, do you want to take a total of 1/6 chance of losing the ship in one turn?

How so? It is comparatively easy to avoid a ram. Assuming both ships are operating at full speed (which is by no means certain in either case), in order for the G'Quan to successfully ram the Omega, it must start its movement no more than 9" away from the Omega.

If the G'Quan is moving second, it's quite likely then that the Omega would've had to put itself in that position in the first place and I don't see a skilled EA player allowing this to happen if they could possibly avoid it, which they probably can using All Stop or APTE. So whilst you may estimate the chances of pulling of a ram to be 1 in 6, that works on the assumption that you've managed to engineer a ramming situation, and the chances of that occurring are going to be much much lower.

However, working on the assumption that, against all the odds, you've have managed to engineer such a situation, if the Omega and the G'Quan have been boresighting each other over a period of say 2 to 3 turns, both ships are going to have taken a lot of damage, and therefore any ramming attempt is quite likely to take out both ships.

The vast majority of rams in the game are going to be opportunistic rather than engineered, and choosing a ship based on its ram "potential" isn't a particularly viable tactic IMO. Even if it were, the Narn player would still be far better off spending a battle point on a Var'Nic and a T'Loth, and sending the T'Loth off on CDB to ram the Omega.

Regards,

Dave

 

[AdrianH]

A Tikrit that CAfs a G'Quan could annhiliate it at range 15 I would guess? 26 dice of AP double damage

First it has to get there. The G'Quan starts firing at range 30, so it gets at least one and possibly two shots before the Tikrit can open fire, plus the e-mine.

The Raider Nova has a shorter range beam, only single damage, and the Nova is very slow. It will probably take at least two hits (plus the e-mine) before it gets to shoot.

The Avioki has a better beam, half the time and at shorter range. And just for once the Frazis might have something to do because the Avioki has no fighters and only 2D AF.

I'm not saying the G'Quan is now so good that it outclasses any of these. But it is now good enough to be a reasonable match.

This is also a good time for the Omega to stop boresighting the G'Quan and turn away because if it doesn't, the G'Quan rams it next turn.

But if it works, it's game over for the Omega right there. It's worth a try. And, as the Omega's player, do you want to take a total of 1/6 chance of losing the ship in one turn?

How so? It is comparatively easy to avoid a ram. Assuming both ships are operating at full speed (which is by no means certain in either case), in order for the G'Quan to successfully ram the Omega, it must start its movement no more than 9" away from the Omega.

If the G'Quan is moving second, it's quite likely then that the Omega would've had to put itself in that position in the first place and I don't see a skilled EA player allowing this to happen...

My point exactly. If the Omega does not want to take a 1/6 chance of being destroyed, it has to turn away. If it does, it's not boresighting the G'Quan any more. The G'Quan, on the other hand, will want to keep boresighting the Omega, so depending on initiative and possibly an attempt at TTT, may get an extra shot with its laser which the Omega can't return.

However, working on the assumption that, against all the odds, you've have managed to engineer such a situation, if the Omega and the G'Quan have been boresighting each other over a period of say 2 to 3 turns, both ships are going to have taken a lot of damage, and therefore any ramming attempt is quite likely to take out both ships.

If they've been trading boresight shots for 2 turns, the G'Quan will have enough damage left that it can probably survive the collision, even if it's crippled. If it's been 3 turns then the Omega has probably taken about half damage and won't need to be rammed when the G'Quan turns round to face it again.

Again, I wouldn't say that the G'Quan is better than an Omega, but it can certainly put up a decent fight now.

 

[Da Boss]

Again, I wouldn't say that the G'Quan is better than an Omega, but it can certainly put up a decent fight now.

I't doesn't feel like that but I am often wrong - I need a few games to see if it does work out - maybe once our campaigns finished............just need to persuade someone to play the Narn with a G'quan!!!

minor things - isn't the Nova beam DD? :? The refits are really very good

The Tikritt - closing on CBD should (unless horrific crits) get into range and then unleash hell on the G'Quan

 

[Foxmeister]

My point exactly. If the Omega does not want to take a 1/6 chance of being destroyed, it has to turn away.

No it doesn't necessarily have to turn away at all! It could potentially APTE "through" the G'Quan and end up on with it as a boresight aft target, and this is going to be especially likely if you're using FA scale minis or counters. A skilled player could probably still manage it with full-sized minis with careful planning of his ships movement and a bit of luck with initiative.

Regards,

Dave

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I am sorry but im very confused here. Why are we talking about ramming? It just seems kinda crazy. If the player controlling the omega had any idea of what to do it wouldn't be close with the enemy! The omega should just really sit at very long range and continue to rake the G'Quan with its beams. The Qquan Moves so slowly that it would either have to trade shots at long range and remain on CBD slowly moving forward. Or absolutlely scream forward on APTE. Doing this its not on CBD which means it'll be critted to death.

The omega just needs to absorb a little damage a turn thats all and stay at range. If as an EA player you want to enter a knife fight with the narn you a little nuts.

If you want to see how much better it is. Play 5 omegas vs 5 G'Quans. See who wins then.

 

[Tolwyn]

On long range it comes down to how well the E-Mine salvo from the G'Quan and beam roles from both ships will be.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Hey I haven't posted in a long time, so here it goes.

I have to say, all you nay sayers are not giving the G'Quan its dues.

I've faced two Narn players, 1 who max/mins and another who plays with a balanced fleet. We play 5pt War.

My fleets

I tend to take a wide veriety of ships. I don't like the idea of specialized fleets and I don't build my fleets to defeat the particular fleet I'm facing (often refered to as meta gaming).

Max/min

Usually takes at least 3 G'Quans and a Ka'Bin'Tak. The rest is a veriety of Dag'Kars and G'Kariths. Using the E-mines in a concentrated attack (the big ships are in a squadron of course) they can severly rip into a formation of ships causing heavy damage to a battle level ship (potentially crippling it) and has a great chance of destroying Raid (or lower) level ships. The beams boresight the first target they can (either concentrating on a single target or multiples). The Dag'Kars add to the destruction with their E-mines and the G'Kariths start popping off fighters and possibly destroying smaller ships.

In this instance, the combined firepower of the G'Quans proved devestating. And because of the 70 damage we can not destroy them fast enough. There was usually 3 of us playing in a single game and we could barely reduce him to half his ships. We both threw everything at him, resorting to ramming when possible (blue stars became known as crewed missiles).

Balanced fleet

While this player only had one or two, the veriety of ships meant that his fleet could handle most problems without difficulty. The increased damage has made them particularily potent. They hang in the fight almost twice as long as an Omega (I said almost). While their secondary weapons are shorter range, with the use of initiative sinks it would get boresight easily.

Analysis

While the G'Quan's secondaries do have a poor range they can get into range. However they are best used as anti-fighter weapons. The sheer weight of fire keeps the skys friendly. Even when playing my 3rd age fighter fleet I would rather send an omega after the things. The fighters can not deal out enough damage (the horrors of hull 6) to bring one down. Thanks to redundancies they are fairly tough (even tougher with CBD) and we use Beam option A so run away beams are not going to happen often enough to count on them. Quite frankly the only ships that are going to be closing with a G'Quan are anything Centauri, Dilgar, Abbai, Drazi and some of the EA ships. Its a stand off ship so if its closing with the enemy (other then its minimum move) its not being used properly. It's secondaries seem to be a minor detail meant to keep small ships and fighters away.

G'Quan vs Omega

Omega 6 AD long range beam, interceptors useless since its not gettin in range of the secondaries. 4 fights (of excellent quality).

G'Quan 5 AD long range beam, 6 AD E-Mine (not much damage, but it helps), has 22 more damage then Omega (now that I see the difference... it has only 50% more damage). 2 flights (they're not gonna win, but they'll hold the fighters up for 1 or two turns)

While the G'Quan does have some inferior weapons the extra damage means the Omega is going to have to score many more hits. The fighters will get cleaned out of the sky by the secondary weapons. (I've seen it happen). The 6 damage from the E-mine will give the G'Quan a head start on damage.

All in all, average damage (using Beam rule A) against a hull 6 ship.
6 damage from the E-mine
5 hits with the beam (9-10 damage)

Your only chance is to get into the flanks, with an omega, that means mad dash across the table with a come about roll or two. Bolters against hull 6 (even with twin-linked) are fairly ineffectual. Drazi have a better chance of killing the G'quan, but its not good. The Stormfalcon is faster with better turns, but the long range damage will hurt it. A Primus will have similar difficulties. with only 2 more speed and a single damage (although percise beam) things could get stickly. Its secondaries (though most will argue that they're primaries) are double damage, but not AP or Super AP. Twin linked helps, but not alot. Brakiri have close to the same amount of damage, but the short range slow loading beam will make it a 50/50 gamble.

I could go on, but its getting a touch long.

 

[Foxmeister]

Thanks to redundancies they are fairly tough (even tougher with CBD)

Do I take it that you are using the optional redundancy rule? If that is being used, I will agree that the 70dps of the G'Quan do become very useful. If not, in my experience, they are almost invariably a floating hulk of critted uselessness before they've even got to their original 55dps of damage.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Democratus]

Indeed. It seems that if you:

1) Play at a crazy huge level (5 Pts. War)
2) Use the optional redundancy rule
3) Use an optional beam rule

then the G'Quan can be a useful ship.

That's way too much trouble to go through just to make an inferior ship competative. :shock:

Most tournaments I've seen/read max out at 5 pts. Battle - so you won't have whole squadrons of G'Quans and Ka'Bin'Taks flying around the board. Heck, not even when the Narn were ambushed by the Shadows did they have a fleet that size (5 War) and they were using the entire home fleet.

 

[Da Boss]

Hey I haven't posted in a long time, so here it goes.

I have to say, all you nay sayers are not giving the G'Quan its dues.

I've faced two Narn players, 1 who max/mins and another who plays with a balanced fleet. We play 5pt War.
A Primus will have similar difficulties. with only 2 more speed and a single damage (although percise beam) things could get stickly. Its secondaries (though most will argue that they're primaries) are double damage, but not AP or Super AP. Twin linked helps, but not alot. .

hi again

I palyed a number of different Narn players over the years and several different ways of using G'Quans. I usually play with my Centauri and never had a problem with killing them one on one with my Primus. In larger games - As squadron of Primus is very nasty. The best area is obviously 9-12" when you hammer the Narn with little or no retaliation - nice. 6 dice beam plus 12 dice DD, TL against a possible (if initiative is kind to the inferior race) 5 AD beam is good!

now I have not really played much against the P+P one (although yet to see the 6+ save vs crits work for other Narn ships) so it may be a different thing...........

As always in ACTA crits a big thing and with the Centuari and Dilgar chucking lots of Precise or Double Damage guns at ships - crits are more common/ hurt a lot more.

 

[katadder]

i never had problems using my narn against EA, never fought centauri with them though. I used to use quite a few g'quans as well as they are tough ships good for soaking up enemy firepower whilst on CBD

 

[Da Boss]

Probably not as tough as T'Loths

Speaking of which has anyone used the carrier variant. Only seen it used once when teamed up with Digger at mongoose Tourney and would have prefered a standard T'Loth :wink:

 

[Democratus]

I'd use the T'Rann in a heartbeat if only it had the Fleet Carrier trait. But without it the ship fails to properly fill a meaningful role in a fleet.

 

[katadder]

true t'loths also fill a nice damage sink role but generally are not shooting back until the fight gets close and personal. in 5pt war i usually fielded 4 t'loths as no one could ever slow down for fear of being boarded

 

[G Quan]

Narn[/b]

Rothan: This guy has little to reccomend it. It has few and poor weaponry, average toughness, and low manuverability. We can never find a reason to take it rather than a Ka'Toc or Thentus.

The Rothan is the oldest Narn ship in service!
I use it in squad with the Rongoth. Together they are a god Raid ship to close support the rear of the Missile Frigates or other slow ones.

^^The G Quan use his secundaris two times in season two!
- At the battle where one G Quan shield a Narn Frighter to escape.
- At the battle in face of B5 at "36 houers" (ISN)
The Laser and E-Mines are not the only weapons of the G Quans at the TV show!

 

[AdrianH]

Those are special situations, although they'd probably work in ACTA.

The first is easy. The Vorchans need to be within 12" to attack the freighters; the G'Quan needs to be between the freighters and the Vorchans to declare "Manoeuvre To Shield Them". That could very well put it within 8" of the nearest Vorchan.

The second involves a G'Quan (or more likely a G'Lan, given its off-bore beam and desire to fight at short range) exiting hyperspace right next to the Primus. Given some luck with the jump point scatter dice, a high CQ, or a rigged dice roll for plot purposes, the Narn ship can do that.

As for the T'Loth, the ultimate ACTA blunt instrument: granted that ramming with a lumbering ship is difficult (you need to boresight the enemy at close range, then make two good CQ rolls), the ambition of any T'Loth captain is to score a double whammy against an enemy of Battle level or better. Ram it, then if there's anything left after 37D SAP TD, board it. The T'Rann loses the plasma gun and all the troops in exchange for six more Frazi flights - fine if you can find a use for the fighters and get a couple of good "Scramble Scramble" rolls, but now it's the one which doesn't dare slow down for fear of being boarded.

The Narn need to learn how to build ships. They have a carrier with no "Fleet Carrier" trait and an escort destroyer with no "Escort" trait. At least they did remember to give the "Scout" trait to their scout ship. :lol:

 

[Burger]

an escort destroyer with no "Escort" trait

They nicked that idea from the Centauri (Sulust) no doubt. It is a destroyer of escorts, not a destroyer that also escorts

 

[Target]

Those are special situations, although they'd probably work in ACTA.

The first is easy. The Vorchans need to be within 12" to attack the freighters; the G'Quan needs to be between the freighters and the Vorchans to declare "Manoeuvre To Shield Them". That could very well put it within 8" of the nearest Vorchan.

The second involves a G'Quan (or more likely a G'Lan, given its off-bore beam and desire to fight at short range) exiting hyperspace right next to the Primus. Given some luck with the jump point scatter dice, a high CQ, or a rigged dice roll for plot purposes, the Narn ship can do that.

As for the T'Loth, the ultimate ACTA blunt instrument: granted that ramming with a lumbering ship is difficult (you need to boresight the enemy at close range, then make two good CQ rolls), the ambition of any T'Loth captain is to score a double whammy against an enemy of Battle level or better. Ram it, then if there's anything left after 37D SAP TD, board it. The T'Rann loses the plasma gun and all the troops in exchange for six more Frazi flights - fine if you can find a use for the fighters and get a couple of good "Scramble Scramble" rolls, but now it's the one which doesn't dare slow down for fear of being boarded.

The Narn need to learn how to build ships. They have a carrier with no "Fleet Carrier" trait and an escort destroyer with no "Escort" trait. At least they did remember to give the "Scout" trait to their scout ship. :lol:

I had a Centauri colony rammed by a T'Loth once, 2 were heading towards to board it, poured my fire into them only to cripple one. Very messy

 

[Joe_Dracos]

2) Use the optional redundancy rule
3) Use an optional beam rule

That's way too much trouble to go through just to make an inferior ship competative. :shock:

Is it really too much trouble to add 2 small boxes to your ship data sheet and learn 1 more new rule?

Most tournaments I've seen/read max out at 5 pts. Battle

I don't really care how big a tournament game gets. We play 5 point war because its fun and we get to play with all our toys that way.