The MegaTraveller-isation Of Mongoose...

[Infojunky]

Ok, I have done a close read through of the document and it reminds me both negatively and positively of MegaTraveller.

The Task System, one of my least favorite parts of MT, I am sorry to see it as the sole system in the 2nd edition of the Mongoose version, but I know how to deconstruct it to fit with my game style.

Art, wish i could I was in love with the Art, so far it is too shiny, too slick, Too computer generated. I hate the Color version of the book, it is all of the above. Consider this Color and the paper that is required is lousy for marginalia. (But that is lame excuse as I will probably never own a dead-tree edition of the book.)

All in all a lot of the changes, inclusion of errata are good.

 

[TrippyHippy]

The task system of MegaTraveller is patently not the same as that presented in this version of Mongoose Traveller. Not sure why you make that comparison.

With regards to the art direction, I think there are two things to consider.

Firstly, Traveller is competing for attention from a whole plethora of games out there, and the plain look simply doesn't draw as much attention as it ought to, while the interior layout and design is one of the most frequently cited criticisms of the current game. If Mongoose wants to develop their game, then they must pay heed to those criticisms - one way or another.

Secondly, when Mongoose first took on the licence, the major art direction lay in trying to capture the spirit of the original game. Now, I think they did a good job of that, but it was in the light of the original game not being in print. Now it is - on POD through drivethrrpg - along with Marc Miller's personal T5 project also being out there too. The 'Classic' market is catered for already. What Mongoose has to do is work out what they want to do with their own line - which can be a difficult balancing act, admittedly.

Looking at the design of the new book, I like that the predominant look is still black and red, and the writing/presentation of the game is still done in a concise way. To me that is homage to the original. The game, because of the genre it caters for, ought to look futuristic and computer generated imagery is often good at that. I do think that people need to be mindful, in the light of MegaTraveller especially, of not having art that is too garish or that will date too rapidly.

Beyond that, I will wait and see what sort of art is being looked at [Memo to Matt: will you release some of the proposed art for playtesters to look at before it goes in the book?], but generally I am happy with the overall look so far.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The printing of MegaTraveller I had did not include rules for its task system. So it never saw any play. I did like the encyclopedia that came with it though. When TNE came out, I was curious if it had any task rules included. It did. Something totally different though, so it never saw any play either. T4 and T5 picked their own task universe and left ours. I was so relieved (maybe shocked even) when I saw Mongoose 1st edition in a book store. It had what's now known as the universal 2D mechanic basically. Easy to use. Easy to integrate into any setting. 2nd edition makes the mechanic run even smoother by unlocking 8+ from the target number. So any difficulty is now the target number, instead of the difficulty being a +/- die modifier to the 8+ like before. Other RPG systems have gone this route, using a difficulty as a floating target number to roll for. Makes bringing those players into a Mongoose Traveller game even simpler.

 

[-Daniel-]

The printing of MegaTraveller I had did not include rules for its task system. So it never saw any play.

In my opinion, the Universal Task Profile or UTP system in Mega-Traveller was not even close to simple nor useful. I sold off the Mega-Traveller I had bought and returned to CT. The very fact they expected me to have tasks fully written out ahead of time told me they didn't play real games. Players do things you, the GM, could never have guessed. A task system must be able to be used on the fly without having to look things up.

Mongoose 1st or 2nd are neither one the same as the Universal Task Profile system of Mega-Traveller.

 

[grauenwolf]

In my opinion, the Universal Task Profile or UTP system in Mega-Traveller was not even close to simple nor useful. I sold off the Mega-Traveller I had bought and returned to CT. The very fact they expected me to have tasks fully written out ahead of time told me they didn't play real games. Players do things you, the GM, could never have guessed. A task system must be able to be used on the fly without having to look things up.

Ok, I'll bite. How did the UTP work?

 

[-Daniel-]

Ok, I'll bite. How did the UTP work?

Using some charts, the GM was expected to write out lists of tasks that would be needed and format them using the UTP format. Then as these tasks came up you would look down your lists and find the one needed and start the task resolution. IMO, a GM should not need a three ring binder filled with task profiles to run a game. Keep the task resolution system simple so it could be used on the fly if needed. 2d+DM>8+ was a simple and clean task resolution system that could be used on the fly.

Now to be fair, I realize this is my opinion and that Mega Traveller had a lot of fans and they clearly like their game. So I am not trying to say it was a bad system as much as it was a bad system for how I like to play. I am sure one of the fans of Mega Traveller will share ways the system was great. So I will stop and allow one of them to offer you their point of view. 8)

 

[anselyn]

The 'Classic' market is catered for already. What Mongoose has to do is work out what they want to do with their own line - which can be a difficult balancing act, admittedly.

This is a very good point.

 

[anselyn]

Ok, I'll bite. How did the UTP work?

Using some charts, the GM was expected to write out lists of tasks that would be needed and format them using the UTP format. Then as these tasks came up you would look down your lists and find the one needed and start the task resolution.

I played MT and never wrote a task definition down. All a Ref had to decide on-the-fly was:
* How hard is the task? [Simple/Routine/Difficult/Formidable]
* What skills and characteristics are crucial to the task?
* How long does the task normally like?
* Does this task involve any special risks?

I've just re-read the section and while it explains how the UTP could be presented in publications, I really didn't infer (then or now) that I should be writing them down myself - let alone preparing a portfolio of them.

Three of those four steps are basically the same as now - although the details slightly vary.

Perhaps this is a lesson about how new or unconfident players can read a ruleset and misunderstand the intent. At least you could return to CT - and weren't lost to the hobby.

 

[hdan]

The point of the UTP seemed to me to be an attempt to make a standard way to present tasks for people writing scenarios. That way, you'd have less "Throw 2D under Strength" and such, and everything would be uniform.

I'm not sure that was a worthy goal, but I believe that was the attempt.

So in that way, I guess Mongoose Traveller does indeed inherit from MegaTraveller, though I don't see that v2 is any different than v1 in that regard.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I'm reading page 9 of MT now (came with T5's CD). Painful. It's written in the Mojo Jojo style.

 

[-Daniel-]

Perhaps this is a lesson about how new or unconfident players can read a ruleset and misunderstand the intent. At least you could return to CT - and weren't lost to the hobby.

Or we could say; Perhaps this is a lesson about how poorly written rules can be misunderstood and the intent lost. :wink:

To be fair to the rule set, it didn't help having fanboys showing pictures of their stacks of 3x5 cards or their binders with lots of tabs filled with UTPs. Not that DGP pushing out lists of the UTPs for "use in the game" helped either. It all combined to reinforced the belief I was expected to write them all down before the game.

And yes, good thing I was an old enough gamer that I just tossed the rules and returned to the books I already owned. Nice how the old books keep working even when a new version comes out. :mrgreen:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I just finished reading page 9 of player's MT and page 11 of referee's MT. Oh... my... goodness. I see why stuff needed writing down in a journal. The rules had to be translated first into something simpler that players/referees could then use in their head.

Garath must have waded through that stuff to find the diamond in the ruff. Simple mechanics like Effect used in MgT. So simple to use. It's the entire point of rolling dice for tasks. And it works for everything pretty much. And it's described in just a few sentences. And... no need to write a journal to play MgT.

 

[anselyn]

I'm reading page 9 of MT now (came with T5's CD). Painful. It's written in the Mojo Jojo style.

Yes. Multiple restatement as a substitute for insightful explanation. Also a desire to codify and regularise, I guess. But, I still think it was trying to do some good things considering the state of gaming in 1987.

 

[anselyn]

Or we could say; Perhaps this is a lesson about how poorly written rules can be misunderstood and the intent lost. :wink:

Absolutely. The rules also have to stand alone. I guess MT was a lot more transparent for anyone coming to it from the Travellers' Digest. Not everyone was.

Nice how the old books keep working even when a new version comes out. :mrgreen:

Yes. I'm amazed how many people fail to see this in other communities.

 

[-Daniel-]

Yes. Multiple restatement as a substitute for insightful explanation. Also a desire to codify and regularise, I guess. But, I still think it was trying to do some good things considering the state of gaming in 1987.

I would always assume anyone who tries to write a rule set and tries to publish it out to the gamer community is doing so because they believe what they have is worth sharing. I would not assume DGP thought anything other than they had a great system when they introduced it and also when GDW elected to bring it into their new edition I assume they meant to improve the game. Of course they were trying to do some good things.

I just don't agree it accomplished what they thought it would. At least not as they wrote the rules behind the idea. Of course that is my opinion and I expect others will disagree.

 

[-Daniel-]

Or we could say; Perhaps this is a lesson about how poorly written rules can be misunderstood and the intent lost. :wink:

Absolutely. The rules also have to stand alone. I guess MT was a lot more transparent for anyone coming to it from the Travellers' Digest. Not everyone was.

I would not be surprised. Traveller's Digest and the other DGP products did have many fans, but some of us used their 101 products but not their other publications. It very well could have made the difference.

Off Topic Side Note: I would have liked to read the Traveller's Digests had they been offered as PDFs on a CD Rom for example. Too bad that seems to be something that will never happen.

 

[Bense]

The task system was a state-of-the-art innovation in the mid-80s, to the point that the basic concepts (fixed die-roll targets for fixed difficulties) are now found in virtually all RPGs. It was a vast improvement over the "look up the roll and modifiers in one of a dozen books" system used in Classic Traveller. All you had to do was set the difficulty and relevant skills, a probable duration (if it was important), and roll. Elegant and easy to remember.

All of the versions of Traveller after MegaTraveller that weren't using some other game's rule system have used a variation of it. That includes Mongoose Traveller 1.0.

My only problems with MegaTraveller were that the ship design system didn't allow duplication of Classic Traveller ships without a lot of wrangling with the power supply and fuel use (and even then it was iffy); and that the Rebellion meta-plot went nowhere interesting, which is at least partly the New Era's fault.

 

[Melbourne Accords]

Absolutely, Bense. The introduction of the task resolution system by Digest Group Publications (DGP) in 1985 was a landmark development. It was the first time that such an approach was used in any RPG. The origin of our current discussion of tasks is to be found in this work.

For any contributor to this playtest who has not encountered DGP material, I take this opportunity to commend their publications to you. It does the Traveller community no service for DGP material to be unavailable for purchase in PDF form.

 

[-Daniel-]

Absolutely, Bense. The introduction of the task resolution system by Digest Group Publications (DGP) in 1985 was a landmark development. It was the first time that such an approach was used in any RPG. The origin of our current discussion of tasks is to be found in this work.

For any contributor to this playtest who has not encountered DGP material, I take this opportunity to commend their publications to you. It does the Traveller community no service for DGP material to be unavailable for purchase in PDF form.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on the two 101 books. I love both to death. But I just can't bring myself to pay what I have seen some of the other stuff go for. I just do not understand why they would resist selling their products and making money. I am sure there is a great story behind it, somewhere.

 

[Bense]

The story is that DGP folded in 1993 from a combination of burnout among the company's developers and GDW going in a different direction with The New Era (and paper & pencil gaming as a whole going into a decline as CCGs and computer gaming rose - GDW also folded about that time). In 1994, a "fan" named Roger Sanger approached Joe Fugate, who had run DGP and owned the whole company at that point, asking to buy some books. Fugate showed him his basement full of the last DGP inventory and Sanger decided to buy all the inventory and the whole company too. Fugate and Sanger worked out a deal over the next 9 months, including working with Marc Miller to allow Sanger to produce Traveller product under license. Sanger's job at the time was buying repossessed real estate, nothing to do with gaming. The sale was complete by 1996. Sanger has never produced a product since that time, and never sold the rights to the DGP stuff. Reportedly Marc Miller has tried to negotiate with him several times to reproduce the old DGP stuff in one of those nifty CDs or even some print form, but Sanger has always asked for too much money to make it possible.