The FFW

To me seems to be taking over the release schedule
Did you see how many books were produced for the Deepnight Endeavor campaign, all of them useless if you didn't want to run that particular campaign?
FFW can be used just as well as a backdrop instead of a campaign. It just adds some verisimilitude. "While you guys were off having this adventure, a war broke out over there."
 
The difference is that the deepnight revelation and the Pirates of Drinax books actually help you run those stories.

This is not currently true of the releases for the 5FW in my opinion. "There's a war going on over there off screen" is ALL they are currently good for.
Yep, totally agree. And your group has to be in a specific sector and at a specific timeline to even interact with anything.
 
The difference is that the deepnight revelation and the Pirates of Drinax books actually help you run those stories.

This is not currently true of the releases for the 5FW in my opinion. "There's a war going on over there off screen" is ALL they are currently good for.
That's mostly what the original 5FW during Classic Traveller and even the Rebellion did too. It was background.
 
The difference is that the deepnight revelation and the Pirates of Drinax books actually help you run those stories.

This is not currently true of the releases for the 5FW in my opinion. "There's a war going on over there off screen" is ALL they are currently good for.
Again both Deepnight Revelation and Pirates of Drinax are Campaigns FFW is not it’s a setting. You’re literally complaining the everything produced and written for say core sector don’t fit together into a nice coherent narrative. Mongoose literally does not classify FFW as a Campaign check the description on the FFW page of the web site “ Explore the grand campaign Setting of The Fifth Frontier War, and witness key events unfold across several new releases in this multi-year story arc.” While there is an overall story arc it is not a single campaign it’s a setting that tells the story of the FFW which will have various elements and interacts with a variety of different characters. You are literally complaining that an Orange is not an Apple.
 
Even if it was a "Setting book" it is bad at that too.

Do I get a region of space to play in with details about worlds and such? No. That's in a completely different, non 5FW book. Do I get rules or advice on adapting that other book to the specifics of this particular paradigm? No.

Do I get a new way to play or a area that is optimized for a type of game play that isn't normally feasible? No. Because it doesn't change anything about the Spinward Marches. By your own admission, it doesn't help you run military games or help with running your non military games in a warzone.

This book says "hey, imagine a war. Here's some arrows on maps." It does not do anything for gameplay, either as a campaign or as a "Setting". It was fun to read, but it is not remotely useful for gameplay.

I am complaining that this series is, once again, totally unhelpful for actual play. I lived through GDW's 5FW and their Rebellion and this is more of the same disregard for use that those books had. Maybe the books coming will redeem it, the way Hard Times almost did with the Rebellion. We'll see.

I am not complaining that an Orange isn't an apple. I'm complaining that it is neither an orange OR an apple, it's a Still Life.
 
Even if it was a "Setting book" it is bad at that too.

Do I get a region of space to play in with details about worlds and such? No. That's in a completely different, non 5FW book. Do I get rules or advice on adapting that other book to the specifics of this particular paradigm? No.

Do I get a new way to play or a area that is optimized for a type of game play that isn't normally feasible? No. Because it doesn't change anything about the Spinward Marches. By your own admission, it doesn't help you run military games or help with running your non military games in a warzone.

This book says "hey, imagine a war. Here's some arrows on maps." It does not do anything for gameplay, either as a campaign or as a "Setting". It was fun to read, but it is not remotely useful for gameplay.

I am complaining that this series is, once again, totally unhelpful for actual play. I lived through GDW's 5FW and their Rebellion and this is more of the same disregard for use that those books had. Maybe the books coming will redeem it, the way Hard Times almost did with the Rebellion. We'll see.

I am not complaining that an Orange isn't an apple. I'm complaining that it is neither an orange OR an apple, it's a Still Life.
There’s a difference between different types of setting books this one is an event setting book. Your complaining that the war is the back drop well tough. A group of battle scenarios is not what most Role Players want, Traveller is not a war game and the majority of players do not want it to be. The rebellion was great it gave creative GMs a background to play in that was dynamic and interesting because that was the setting. Event settings a quite common in RPGs shoot the whole Trinity line is a series of event style settings.

FFW is very much a setting and to use your own words Behind the Claw for example does not have any “
Do I get rules or advice on adapting that other book to the specifics of this particular paradigm? No.
Do I get a new way to play or a area that is optimized for a type of game play that isn't normally feasible? No. Because it doesn't change anything about the Spinward Marches.” So according to you Behind the Claw is not a setting book either. You see rules for these things in Campaigns not setting books.

If you want to play war games in Traveller find yourself a copy of the old FFW board game and have at it. The truth of the matter is you wanted one thing a huge campaign where the players determine the course of everything but instead you got a setting, some adventures and smaller campaigns set in this setting that let your players be a part of the setting and gives background for a creative GM to use. You wanted an Orange but you got Apples which was what you were told you were getting and now you’re complaining.
 
To be fair Mongoose have demarcated the FFW setting books with a clearly different title on the book covers.

The main issue with the setting is there is no end game in sight. With the books being released every few years that is not likely to change any time soon. This is a product that is difficult to use in an actual game. Only when the line has finished can referees really use it. You can't create a FFW game that has potentially no end in sight for several years, that's just nonsense and would not be appreciated by players. The referee must be fully in control of their game. In this FFW setting Mongoose are in control.

But also its not the sort of thing that will bring much to a game anyway. So an interstellar war is going on somewhere. Why and how would that affect the Travellers? It's only going to seen in the news and maybe have an affect on some prices. Just like the affects the Ukrainian War has on present day America - increased fuel and energy prices, that's about it. Unless they are in the navy or situated near the border somewhere.
 
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To be fair Mongoose have demarcated the FFW setting books with a clearly different title on the book covers.

The main issue with the setting is there is no end game in sight. With the books being released every few years that is not likely to change any time soon. This is a product that is difficult to use in an actual game. Only when the line has finished can referees really use it. You can't create a FFW game that has potentially no end in sight for several years, that's just nonsense and would not be appreciated by players. The referee must be fully in control of their game. In this FFW setting Mongoose are in control.

But also its not the sort of thing that will bring much to a game anyway. So an interstellar war is going on somewhere. Why and how would that affect the Travellers? It's only going to seen in the news and maybe have an affect on some prices. Just like the affects the Ukrainian War has on present day America - increased fuel and energy prices, that's about it. Unless they are in the navy or situated near the border somewhere.
I don’t know about no end in sight with “The Turning Tide: A wider look at the Fifth Frontier War before we dive into its final stages. With this book you will be able to consider the actions your Travellers and other characters have taken in past adventures, and determine how they have affected the wider course of the war. Have your Travellers altered the outcome of the Fifth Frontier War, and are they on a path that might greatly affect the balance of power in the Spinward Marches?” Due out in September and mongoose saying that FFW will end next year with an end of the war book(that doesn’t mean we will not get another 4 or 5 books before the end of war book) 🤞(possibly with an updated Spinward Marches map).

I suspect that either next year or the year after we will start seeing adventures in Denab as Norris starts cleaning up that sector (in CT and MT he did this under imperial warrant because of the actions durning FFW by the Dukes in Denab). Though this might just be done as part of an after FFW report.

Either way I would love to see the Rebellion done this way because I think they’ve done an excellent job with FFW so far.
 
We will not see that. Mongoose has said they will not advance the timeline.

Every setting starts in 1105, in the case of FFW it leads up to the start in 1107.

For Mongoose to plot a course for after the war means they have to have a canonical ending, which they have said they will not have.

Besides, Naalir takes over the Imperium so it is all moot.

Or the supermen from the Ancients trilogy take over the Imperium so it is all moot.

Or the moot takes over the Imperium...
 
FFW is very much a setting and to use your own words Behind the Claw for example does not have any “
Do I get rules or advice on adapting that other book to the specifics of this particular paradigm? No.
Do I get a new way to play or a area that is optimized for a type of game play that isn't normally feasible? No. Because it doesn't change anything about the Spinward Marches.” So according to you Behind the Claw is not a setting book either. You see rules for these things in Campaigns not setting books.

If you want to play war games in Traveller find yourself a copy of the old FFW board game and have at it. The truth of the matter is you wanted one thing a huge campaign where the players determine the course of everything but instead you got a setting, some adventures and smaller campaigns set in this setting that let your players be a part of the setting and gives background for a creative GM to use. You wanted an Orange but you got Apples which was what you were told you were getting and now you’re complaining.
As usual, you resort to inventing arguments that no one has made.

Regarding Beyond the Claw, it fulfills the first category of setting book I listed:

Do I get a region of space to play in with details about worlds and such?

As for the rest, no, actually I don't want a big giant campaign where the players control things. That IS better than what we have, but not what I would like to see. I wanted a product that makes having a big war going on in the background mean something and gives the GMs tools to use the war in play.

If you've found a way to use it, great. But pretty much everyone else is like "fun to read, lives on my shelf". That's not an ideal game product.
 
Yes, the adventures are good, which is an improvement over the GDW Rebellion. But they are mutually incompatible, unlike the Marches or Reach Adventures. Unless your play group is keen to do half a dozen or more different parties each doing a one shot. If I was still running in a gaming club setting, that might even be interesting. But I don't think it is a common way to play Traveller.
As for the rest, no, actually I don't want a big giant campaign where the players control things. That IS better than what we have, but not what I would like to see. I wanted a product that makes having a big war going on in the background mean something and gives the GMs tools to use the war in play.
You claim you don’t want a big giant campaign yet you also complained that the adventures where mutually incompatible make up your mind.
Do I get a region of space to play in with details about worlds and such?
thats what you call a time based setting something you seem not to be able to understand. Settings don’t have to be places they can also be events. The old WOC Star Wars game had various settings that were based not on a place but a time frame. Call of Cthulhu has various time based settings.
 
I was discussing the usefulness of the adventures, because that's what has been produced. I don't personally run things like the Ancients campaign or PoD or whatnot, so that is not what I would personally prefer. However, I do not have a problem with Mongoose making things that are not what I personally prefer if they are useful to others, which those campaigns are. Each of these adventures is individually fairly interesting. However, they are extremely specific and they are designed for a bunch of different groups of characters. So, unless you are looking to run a bunch of one shots, they are not particularly useful as written. I will get some use out of them by chopping them up and using them completely differently than written, which is what I generally do with pre-published adventures and adventure campaigns.

As far as the main books go, whether this is a setting or campaign or whatever you want to call it, you have not demonstrated that it provides anything that will actually be useful at the table. In fact, you conceded a number of posts back that it does not provide anything of use to a GM.

It is an incomplete discussion of an event which neither the players nor the GMs currently have sufficient information to do anything with. A published "event" in which the GM does not know what to objectives are, how (or when) it is expected to end, or most of what is expected to happen is a thing that is not going to be used. There is no constituency that I am aware of that benefits from these books at the current time, two years into the publication cycle. People who want a campaign did not get it. People who wanted to have stuff to run their own version of the 5FW did not get it. People who wanted a complete set piece storyline to frame their setting around have not gotten it.

Quite a few people, including myself, have said that the books were fun to read. No one I have seen has suggested an actual use for them except looking pretty on the bookshelf. This thread was started by people who think these books shouldn't be published at all, which I disagree with despite the fact that so far they have missed the mark. It's going to be another six months or a year before we get the full scope of what this story/setting/whatever is about. And most of what is still coming is adventures, which at least has some value as grist. There may be more products we don't have titles for yet, I don't know.

The fact that I was personally hoping for an event book that had tie-ins to existing products like the Mercenary Guide and the Naval Campaign Guide and other materials helpful in making wars a cool feature of a campaign rather than a "don't go there" zone is neither here nor there. I rarely run in Charted Space and even when I do, it isn't in the Spinward Marches, so I was hoping it would be something that could be used should I want a war in my homebrew settings. Unfortunately, it is not that.

I have been providing feedback about what I see as issues with this product line. I engaged with you because I thought perhaps I had overlooked something and you had actually found a use case for these books. That does not appear to be the situation, because you haven't asserted any positives to the materials or ways that a GM might benefit from owning them, but instead just telling me that I am wrong to want them to have a use.

So you can reasonably assume that I am done responding to you.
 
I see many missed opportunities with FFW.

A set of rules to fight out mercenary actions that ties into and improves on the Mercenary set.

A set of rules for running minor naval engagements at up the the squadron vs squadron level - HG is not very good at this, the fleet combat rules are not fit for this purpose. I don't one PoD and am unlikely to ever do so but I do know there is a fleet combat system for one of the scenarios, could that have been adapted?

A simple campaign that spans the war for the same group of characters.

I like the Zhodani facing adventures that have been produced for FFW as they offer something different.
 
Quite a few people, including myself, have said that the books were fun to read. No one I have seen has suggested an actual use for them except looking pretty on the bookshelf. This thread was started by people who think these books shouldn't be published at all, which I disagree with despite the fact that so far they have missed the mark. It's going to be another six months or a year before we get the full scope of what this story/setting/whatever is about. And most of what is still coming is adventures, which at least has some value as grist. There may be more products we don't have titles for yet, I don't know.
So your statement that nobody likes or uses it is purely anecdotal at best.
 
I see many missed opportunities with FFW.

A set of rules to fight out mercenary actions that ties into and improves on the Mercenary set.

A set of rules for running minor naval engagements at up the the squadron vs squadron level - HG is not very good at this, the fleet combat rules are not fit for this purpose. I don't one PoD and am unlikely to ever do so but I do know there is a fleet combat system for one of the scenarios, could that have been adapted?

A simple campaign that spans the war for the same group of characters.

I like the Zhodani facing adventures that have been produced for FFW as they offer something different.
I do agree that there is still much that can be added to FFW and I too would like to see a book that expands on Mercenaries but I don’t want them to turn it into a wargame supplement for Traveller either. So I’m not sure that I’m all that interested in fleet combat rules.

So far we have some very good adventures, great information on the ground forces which I think is a major support for Mercenary campaigns plus a lot of information on the war that a creative GM can use. As settings go I have absolutely no problem with FFW but I also understand that it takes time for a project like this to come together. We have 4 actual setting books Fifth Frontier War, war Fleets of, Armies of, and Riverland everything else as been either an adventure or a book of short adventures. With all the other stuff that mongoose has produced for Traveller in the last two years along with these 9 books I have no problem with the release of FFW.
 
We have 4 actual setting books Fifth Frontier War, war Fleets of, Armies of, and Riverland everything else as been either an adventure or a book of short adventures.
These could have all been in one large setting book. Who needs a book just of the war fleets or just of the armies? What use are those on their own? I haven't read these books but they must be full of fluff and filler to expand this setting into four books? Especially when you consider the whole of the core rules fits into just one medium sized book. I could have written a great setting book with all of that in myself.

But I would also have put in threads to possible games, clues, rumours etc so the book was usable by people around a table playing a game as normal Travellers. No need for loads of adventures books either when plot hooks are far more intriguing and can get the referees imagination going far more than having everything spelled out for him.

And yes directly making use of the current Mongoose material that is already out there - Mercenary, High Guard, Bounty Hunter etc. Yes the referee has a bit of work to do in that circumstance - maybe creating his own Mercenary units or Fleets. Maybe even working out the details of the path of the war itself as every persons war could be individualised. But that is what referees actually enjoy doing !! And what group wants to play through exactly the same war as everyone else when it could be a bit randomised by the referee?

Why do these books have to spell out everything in minute detail? A general explanation is all that is needed leaving room for the referees creativity.
 
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