Term Explanations

[Burger]

The JP opened in Jupiter's atmosphere was a bit dodgy. Admittedly that was realspace->hyperspace, but it could work the other way too. There are ground to say that the presence of matter (ie a ship) might make the JP dangerous to the generating ship.

 

[katadder]

why would the energy hitting the target make it less stable? its a huge amount of energy ripping through dimensions as such, hitting something as puny as a ship isnt going to change it in any form, just adds some debris to the opening. as for reflecting it back on itself? wtf, lol if a ship could reflect that much energy in any way whatsoever then you have just found the perfect defense against weapons.
its like saying that the energy from a weapon changes if it hits something so some of the power is reflected back to source.

 

[katadder]

The JP opened in Jupiter's atmosphere was a bit dodgy. Admittedly that was realspace->hyperspace, but it could work the other way too. There are ground to say that the presence of matter (ie a ship) might make the JP dangerous to the generating ship.

but they safely came out of hperspace onto mars with no damage to a WS. I think its cos of jupiters gravity had an effect on the JP, or maybe the gases in its atmosphere react badly, didnt they say they were explosive and thats why. IIRC thats the reason for it from jupiter, its atmosphere is more explosive when combined with the force from a jump point.

 

[Valen is my name]

i remember hearing or reading somewhere that opening jump points is dangerous, and there is quite a lot of risk. Due to technology advaning, there are very few problems when a ship simply opens a jump point, but if you stick another ship in front of the JP, or the JP near another ship, you could face problems.

theres a lot of energy involved, and if you stick a ship in the way, some/most will hit and disperse into the ship, but if it goes around it, it will effect the rest of the energy, which is hard to control, so its likely the ship that started the JP may get hit by some of the energy, especially if it deflects back after hitting the other ship, or the JP energy hitting an object will unstablise it, so it could collapse. JPs can collapse - the shadows can make them - so its possible they could collapse as an accident

 

[katadder]

the energy goes right through the ship, thats why the blackstar killed so many ships as the JP energy just went straight through them. its not going to be stopped by something as insignificant as a ship, thats like trying to hold back the tide with a car. although a JP has more force so instead of flowing past it it goes right through.
the shadows are ancients and have found a way to make JPs collapse through a weapon, thats the differance. JPs in show never seem to casue any danger or hint of danger to those using them from their ships.
plus doesnt matter if the JP collapses anyway as the ship wont be entering it until its open, and it the opening of the JP that causes the damage to anything to close.

 

[Valen is my name]

no but it could make the energy deviate even a tiny bit, which COULD lead to the JP being unstable. And there is no hint of danger in the show when ships are using JP normally, but there would be some risk if the JP was right next to a ship. the Black Star probably knew the risk just decided to do it anyway because they thought they were too good to have a JP collapse on them, but there is a lot of energy in a jump point because they are ripping hoes in two dimensions, so that energy could quite easily not do what people want it to, there is a risk, but some crews, especially the minbari will ignore it

 

[Spike1382]

Seems to me that JPB should be a bonus for coming out in the middle of an enemy fleet, not a game ending strategy. If the damage is balanced so that opening a JP every few turns isn't worth keeping ships in hyper space, then that would be a good solution, right? So why not damage based on priority level? If your Blue Star only does one or two AD it might be worth JPBing, but not very appealing as the ship's sole use. Am I horribly wrong in this view? :?

 

[Davesaint]

Ahh, but what about the new requirement for scouts to pull off a JPB? If it's one scout for one JBP per turn and the ship can be damaged on a bad roll, then the Blue Star is balanced. You'd need six scouts for six JPBs. Doable with the new White Star scout, but that's building you fleet around that strategy, which I wouldn't mind so much personally. How about that?

Vaarls. Lots of Vaarls. I could buy 1 Vaarl for every Blue Star. Say the battle is 5 battle. I buy 6 Blue Stars, 6 Vaarls, and 6 White Stars. Ew.

of course the White Star scout is coming, so maybe I can take 6 Blue Stars and 8 White Star Scouts. :roll:


Dave

 

[Davesaint]

like i said though you can still do it, just use small ships for your JPs and one of them can be the decoy

That is pretty restricting in scenarios where I'm only allowed to keep 2 ships in hyperspace.

also in B5 cant they generally use sensors to see whats coming through a JP? if nothings coming through it wouldnt be much of a decoy would it.

Through the jump gate, yes they can judge the size but not identity. For example all they know when the Hyperion arrives to take control of Epsilon 3 is, "it's big". Jump points, they have no idea what is coming through, for example when the Sharlins jump in to protect B5 against Clark's reinforcements, they assume it's more EA until Delenn comes through in her White Star and gives her speech about kicking butt.

Opening 2 JP's and bringing both ships through one of them is not cheesy at all. Its keeping your tactical options open.

well if the 2 ships are sharlins then the enemy has to decide which one to turn towards, or you can just bring them in behind.

like i said theres evidence in the show of a similar tactic, except they have to use ships to actually decoy, not just open jump points. personally i think this is a good idea to stop people JP bombing then cmoing out another JP, if it messes with other peoples tactics a little then so be it, just means you need the decoy ships is all.

this won't keep people from JP Bombing. The only thing it will do is that it might make someone lose a Blue Star.

You have also indicated that you just use small ships to hold the JP. What if your races fleet only has large ships with the Jump Point Trait. Until the last S&P, the Brakiri didn't have a ship below raid that could open a JP. Is this a fair and balanced way of restricting JP Bombing? I think not. Just BAN the tactic!


Dave

 

[vitalis6969]

We have an easy house rule to cover JPBs.... In addition to the standard rules, the ship initiating the JPB takes the same amount of damage due to being in an unstable hyperdimentional portal. In addition, any friendlies in hyperspace take the damage as well on a roll of 5 or 6. As for the friendlies taking damage, that is just even more of a deterrent to keep people from using cheap expendable ships or really really massive ships that can take the damage to JPB with.

-V

 

[katadder]

yes some fleets only have big ships with Jump Engines but then as with the trial rules you need an AJE to JP bomb then those races wont be effected.
if you use all of your bluestars to JP bomb then you will only get on avergae 2 to work with those rules. now if we add in they have to use the JP they open suddenly every single bluestar is in the middle of your fleet and secondaries/fighters can deal with that quite happily.

as for damage refracting back - i have already had this conversation - the damage is caused by the opening of a JP, all the energy is out in real space. theres no way anything as small as a ship (in space terms) would reflect that amount of energy.

 

[vitalis6969]

It doesn't matter to us regarding the actual mechanics of a JPB, i.e. the power being in realspace and not in hyperspace. Its a rule to prevent a dickmove from being used by a$$hat gamers.

For all intents and purposes we could substitute the energy effecting hyperspace with Slappy the Clown and a big hammer.

-V

 

[Spike1382]

It doesn't matter to us regarding the actual mechanics of a JPB, i.e. the power being in realspace and not in hyperspace. Its a rule to prevent a dickmove from being used by a$$hat gamers.

For all intents and purposes we could substitute the energy effecting hyperspace with Slappy the Clown and a big hammer.

-V

True, but I don't think it's overly ambitious to want to balance the tactic so that it might be usable without being an exploit. This is coming from someone who's never JPBed. You can plug holes or you can build a better ship. I think building a better ship is what 2nd Ed. is all about.

As depicted in the show, a JPB is an advantage in an attack, but not a battle winning tactic. The Black Star might have been able to take that fleet anyway, but surprise, distraction AND the added damage from the JPB helped swing the odds in their favor.

Why do the jump engines on a Blue Star cause the same amount of damage as a Victory? If a ship were JPBing it would open the biggest possible jump point, right? I don't see it as realistic that a Blue Star can put out the same amount of power as a ship ten, twenty or thirty times it's size. Either it should be a lot harder or do a lot less damage. These things are not equal. Why should it be as hard and damaging for the smallest and largest ships in space? It doesn't make sense AND it's bad for the game. I say, kill two birds with one stone. Simple, easy and fair. And that way, if someone wants to JPB with their fleet of Blue Stars, it's not a jerk move, it's a valid tactic. A tactic that isn't unthinkable that a real commander on the B5 universe might use.

 

[katadder]

the power from opening the JP is the same, ripping a hole in space. you could do the radius on ship sizes if you want as thats the only differance, however with the radius already beibng down to 2" in the trial rules it will only get one ship anyway.

 

[Reaverman]

Katadder,

the point everyone, his dog and his sheep are making. The JP occurs once, its pointed out then it's a hard tactic, and you don't see other occurances. Fleets are not doing it every episiode, even surprise attacks in the shows, never used AJP.

The game is just going to encourage ISA players, and other players with low PL AJP's to bomb the heck out of the opposing fleet. No matter how hard you make actually it to succeed, the ISA low PL ships and Dual Drive, is just going to push the averages back in favour of the ISA.

 

[katadder]

see you bring up dual drive, you dont even know what that does yet. maybe the ISA are better at them, but then they do have elite crews.

what I am pointing out is:
1) theres no way you would get a backlash from opening one on a ship.
2) its being made harder to do.

I am also trying to get included the fact that when a ship goes to all the trouble of opening a JP it will use it, not use someone elses. Which will mean if someone wants to use their jump engines as a weapon they better be prepared to come out in the middle of a hostile fleet.

 

[darknight]

can i ask something silly,
if a ship is in hyperspace, could it really see through to realspace with sensors? i think maybe not, in which case surely you couldnt place a jump point anywhere you want( in the middle of enemy ships) just in a sector thay=t would have to be slightly randomized

 

[Jal]

can i ask something silly,
if a ship is in hyperspace, could it really see through to realspace with sensors? i think maybe not, in which case surely you couldnt place a jump point anywhere you want( in the middle of enemy ships) just in a sector thay=t would have to be slightly randomized

in the B5 movie the EA fleet was lured into a specific area and then the Black Star made its jump to that predetermined position... only the Minbari were able to make a jump to such close tolerances.

 

[darknight]

right, thanks, so would it not be easier just to limit jp bombs etc to that race or ship?

 

[Jal]

it`s a bit of a cheesy tactic i think and i would limit it`s use to a pre-plotted position on the map that you have to drawn the enemy into.... just my 2 pence.

the motto is " sic vis pacem para bellum" by the way... used to use that one myself. 8)