Term Explanations

[Davesaint]

for jump point bombing wouldn't it be better if there was a risk of the jump point collapsing or something as it hits the ship, so the jump point opening ship is at risk to, so not all would do it, bit like the skin dancing idea

Love this idea! Seems fair way to fix this problem. Though I would say risk of taking damage rather than flat out destroying the jumping ship. Where's Matt?

Frankly it wouldn't keep me from using it, especially for ships like the Blue Star. If I lose 1 Blue Star and take out a Tinashi in it's place, Who Cares. I can have 6 Blue Stars for every Tinashi, and Stealth is ignored for the AJP issue. That and they can all be in a squadron, so 36AD of TD love can be spread across that Tinashi. I will average 36 and 36 damage with 2 Criticals.

That's busted.


Dave

 

[Spike1382]

Ahh, but what about the new requirement for scouts to pull off a JPB? If it's one scout for one JBP per turn and the ship can be damaged on a bad roll, then the Blue Star is balanced. You'd need six scouts for six JPBs. Doable with the new White Star scout, but that's building you fleet around that strategy, which I wouldn't mind so much personally. How about that?

 

[CZuschlag]

Not bloody likely! Remember, you can order a Scout version of the WS that only costs you a single Nial flight!

You're still killing a Tinashi for pennies on the dollar, even if you lose a Blue Star.

Why does everyone insist on keeping this atrocity? Becuase they've used it themselves once and don't want to admit they selected the Stilton?

Burger -- help! What is the sick attaction of this thing? Is it how we recruit GW players?

 

[Spike1382]

You could also just make the JPB damage relative to the size of the ship, on the assumption a Blue Star opens a lot smaller jump point than a Victory.

 

[katadder]

it still requires a CQ check. and if the ISA are taking WSs with scout they are seriously leaving themselves open to fighter attack, a big weakness of theirs so they need all the fighters they can get.

so you get 6 bluestars for a battle point (for now anyway ) and they need a CQ10 check to pull of a JPB. thats 5s even with ISA crew so 2 hit. that seriously decreases the damage they do. then next turn they come out and your light raiders and the bluestars have a little scrap.

I have been jump point bombed and used it against people, its never a huge tactic. ok i lost a dargan to 2 JPBs but the already damaged darkner next to it suvived both JP bombs. and thats with current rules where they are auto with 4" radius. the trial rules up have a 2" radius, a CQ10 check and need a scout on the board (which at this game the minbai didnt have at the time).

what about this - if a ship opens a JP it has to use it sometime within the next 3 turns it keeps it open for. it cannot use it purely as a weapon then close it down and use another JP to enter the playing area.

 

[Spike1382]

it still requires a CQ check. and if the ISA are taking WSs with scout they are seriously leaving themselves open to fighter attack, a big weakness of theirs so they need all the fighters they can get.

so you get 6 bluestars for a battle point (for now anyway ) and they need a CQ10 check to pull of a JPB. thats 5s even with ISA crew so 2 hit. that seriously decreases the damage they do. then next turn they come out and your light raiders and the bluestars have a little scrap.

I have been jump point bombed and used it against people, its never a huge tactic. ok i lost a dargan to 2 JPBs but the already damaged darkner next to it suvived both JP bombs. and thats with current rules where they are auto with 4" radius. the trial rules up have a 2" radius, a CQ10 check and need a scout on the board (which at this game the minbai didnt have at the time).

what about this - if a ship opens a JP it has to use it sometime within the next 3 turns it keeps it open for. it cannot use it purely as a weapon then close it down and use another JP to enter the playing area.

Hmm, now that doesn't sound game breakingly powerful to me...

 

[CZuschlag]

Why all this obscure legerdemain, if the simplest idea, and one that minimizes the rule set at very little cost to the game, is to BAN the tactic?

Sigh. All the contortions you are going through (all of which end up benefiting the ISA on this one), really, just to balance the game on the basis of one unique scenario in one obscure situation screams futility. The simple answer is obvious -- at what point are you going to take it?

(I have projects at work that I might say the same of, but that's an entirely different story....)

Even Tony Blair finally got the message after sustained obvious results. Now, if we could just do the same with the guy we have on this side of the pond.

Occam's Razor -- the simplest answer is usually the best!

 

[Burger]

Another simple solution: keep it in the game as in 1e, but only the Black Star can do it.

they need a CQ10 check to pull of a JPB.

Has it gone up to 10 now? Last I heard it was 9.
10 is an improvement, 11 would be even better

what about this - if a ship opens a JP it has to use it sometime within the next 3 turns it keeps it open for. it cannot use it purely as a weapon then close it down and use another JP to enter the playing area.

That restricts tactics, and freedom of play. I sometimes open 2 JP's on opposite sides of the board (no bombing, just 2 points) then bring both ships out of one of them... to keep the enemy guessing where I'm going to appear from, and make him split up his fleet. I think you'll agree that is a totally valid tactic, and your idea would rule it out.

 

[katadder]

true but in B5 if a ship expends all the energy needed to open a JP they use it. you never see 2 ships both open a JP then both come out of just one of them.

 

[Burger]

You never see a Sharlin fire both its forward and aft lasers at the same time, either. Doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[katadder]

fine JP bomb away and all come through the JP where ever you like, will tell everyone else to negate that idea as it spoils your tactics.

 

[Burger]

Err what?

Pick up your toys, put them back in the pram. They'll get dirty.

 

[katadder]

nope just pointing out you complaining cos would lose another tactic to stop the JP bomb and appear somewhere else tactic.

if you want to use multiple JPs to bring on a fleet but confuse the enemy do it like this :

2 small ships open JPs at opposite ends of the board. one is obviously a decoy and will have to come through its own JP whilst the entirety of you other ships in HS can choose which one to come through as they havent opened their own JPs.

 

[Burger]

My problem is this...

It is good to introduce a rule to prevent people JP bombing. It is a stupid, cheesy tactic.
It is not good to punish the player who currently uses valid tactics, but does not JP bomb.

Your suggestion punishes both players, the good one and the bad one alike. Therefore I oppose your suggestion, not because I am a bad player who would like to carry on JP bombing, but I am a good player who would lose a valid tactical option and freedom of choice.

 

[katadder]

like i said though you can still do it, just use small ships for your JPs and one of them can be the decoy. this even has evidence from the show to back up the idea. in sheridens march on earth his 1st battle he had a WS sqaudron come out the other side of a planet to decoy the EA cruisers into splitting forces. if he could have done it just by opening a JP dont you think they would have? no he had to use ships, and by my idea thats what you would have to do.
also in B5 cant they generally use sensors to see whats coming through a JP? if nothings coming through it wouldnt be much of a decoy would it.

a ship having to use the JP it opens is playing closer to the show than opening a few and then choosing one to come from, its almost as cheesy a tactic as JP bombing as the opposing fleet doesnt have a clue which way to turn, which is not true to the show.
you want decoys, fine use a ship to decoy.

 

[Burger]

like i said though you can still do it, just use small ships for your JPs and one of them can be the decoy

That is pretty restricting in scenarios where I'm only allowed to keep 2 ships in hyperspace.

also in B5 cant they generally use sensors to see whats coming through a JP? if nothings coming through it wouldnt be much of a decoy would it.

Through the jump gate, yes they can judge the size but not identity. For example all they know when the Hyperion arrives to take control of Epsilon 3 is, "it's big". Jump points, they have no idea what is coming through, for example when the Sharlins jump in to protect B5 against Clark's reinforcements, they assume it's more EA until Delenn comes through in her White Star and gives her speech about kicking butt.

Opening 2 JP's and bringing both ships through one of them is not cheesy at all. Its keeping your tactical options open.

 

[katadder]

like i said though you can still do it, just use small ships for your JPs and one of them can be the decoy

That is pretty restricting in scenarios where I'm only allowed to keep 2 ships in hyperspace.

also in B5 cant they generally use sensors to see whats coming through a JP? if nothings coming through it wouldnt be much of a decoy would it.

Through the jump gate, yes they can judge the size but not identity. For example all they know when the Hyperion arrives to take control of Epsilon 3 is, "it's big". Jump points, they have no idea what is coming through, for example when the Sharlins jump in to protect B5 against Clark's reinforcements, they assume it's more EA until Delenn comes through in her White Star and gives her speech about kicking butt.

Opening 2 JP's and bringing both ships through one of them is not cheesy at all. Its keeping your tactical options open.

well if the 2 ships are sharlins then the enemy has to decide which one to turn towards, or you can just bring them in behind.

like i said theres evidence in the show of a similar tactic, except they have to use ships to actually decoy, not just open jump points. personally i think this is a good idea to stop people JP bombing then cmoing out another JP, if it messes with other peoples tactics a little then so be it, just means you need the decoy ships is all.

 

[Valen is my name]

for jump point bombing wouldn't it be better if there was a risk of the jump point collapsing or something as it hits the ship, so the jump point opening ship is at risk to, so not all would do it, bit like the skin dancing idea

Love this idea! Seems fair way to fix this problem. Though I would say risk of taking damage rather than flat out destroying the jumping ship. Where's Matt?

or could combine the two, so say on a roll of a 1 the jump point collapses as the ship emerges, destroying it, on a 2 or 3 it just gets clear but is still damaged by the wash or whatever you want to call it, so it is damaged (perhaps as much as the target would be, as it would be hit with the same energy, so 6AD TD.) And on a 4,5 and 6 it pulls it off.

Where is matt :?:

 

[katadder]

to have any risk of totally destroying the ship committing the attack you would have to allow it to totally destroy its target as in ITB.

however why would a ship coming from hyperspace take damage? the damage caused is by the shockwave of a JP opening into realspace from hyperspace. the ship doesnt use it so much as a weapon as opens it where it will cause damage.
if you want damage on a ship doing JPBs then everytime someone opens a JP into or out of hyperspace they would take damage as thats all thats happening - a JP is being opened, just happens to be on a ship.

 

[Valen is my name]

because the energy hitting the target makes it less stable, and is changing where the energy goes, so the jump point is more likely to collapse or the energy may 'splash back' of the target, hitting the emerging ship