Tech is too setting-specific?!

[EDG]

Just going over the new rules update and I'm confused - I thought this was supposed to be a generic SF rulebook, wasn't it? So what's all the Imperium-centric stuff doing in the tech section? e.g. "Currency in the Third Imperium", and "Common Spacecraft" describing OTU ships, and (horror of horrors) the only FTL drive that's mentioned is the OTU Jump Drive on pg 5/6?

I was expecting that all that would be in the Traveller setting book, and we'd be seeing FF&S-type generic rules in this book, including rules for any kind of FTL drive (warp drive, hyperdrive, instant jumps, psionic drives etc etc) and not just the one specific to the OTU? Not having rules for a wide range of FTL technologies makes this a whole endeavour a lot less useful for anyone in OGL terms that it should be.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

It's generic sci-fi but still Traveller-flavoured, in the same way Runequest is generic fantasy but still Glorantha-flavoured.

That said, I do want to put some other FTL drives in there in a sidebar.

 

[captainjack23]

It's generic sci-fi but still Traveller-flavoured, in the same way Runequest is generic fantasy but still Glorantha-flavoured.

That said, I do want to put some other FTL drives in there in a sidebar.

Ohhhh ! OOOOH! Dean drive ! Dean drive !

Spindizzies RULE.

Cap

 

[AKAramis]

Just going over the new rules update and I'm confused - I thought this was supposed to be a generic SF rulebook, wasn't it? So what's all the Imperium-centric stuff doing in the tech section? e.g. "Currency in the Third Imperium", and "Common Spacecraft" describing OTU ships, and (horror of horrors) the only FTL drive that's mentioned is the OTU Jump Drive on pg 5/6?

I was expecting that all that would be in the Traveller setting book, and we'd be seeing FF&S-type generic rules in this book, including rules for any kind of FTL drive and not just the one specific to the OTU? Not having rules for a wide range of FTL technologies makes this a heck of a lot less useful for anyone that it should be (especially if it's OGL).

The core rulebook is apparently to be no more generic than MT's... but the resultan SRD will be.

At least, that's the way the RQ system worked: the core has some Gloranthan material, and is not actually open content, but the SRD (much of which is in the core) is open content.

 

[EDG]

It's generic sci-fi but still Traveller-flavoured, in the same way Runequest is generic fantasy but still Glorantha-flavoured.

That said, I do want to put some other FTL drives in there in a sidebar.

I hope you do that, or we'll end up with the same problem as CT, which is that it was only good for making settings that were like CT. For generic SF toolkits to be any use they have to be able to let the GM make his own setting free from any assumptions inherent in the rules (in Traveller this only really got rectified when FF&S first came out).

Some general advice on making your own settings with the Traveller rules wouldn't go amiss at some point either (e.g. advice on the setting implications of how long it takes to travel between systems, communication speed, what sort of Tech is used etc).

 

[captainjack23]

Strangely enough, I agree. BUT, given a set page count, lets not make it too much all things for all campaigns. After all, it does say "traveller" on the cover.

Cap.

 

[EDG]

After all, it does say "traveller" on the cover.

Remember though that "Traveller" isn't the OTU anymore, it's also a set of rules to make your own SF universe with.

Perhaps the OTU specific stuff could be highlighted or put in boxes or something in the text?

 

[captainjack23]

After all, it does say "traveller" on the cover.

Remember though that "Traveller" isn't the OTU anymore, it's also a set of rules to make your own SF universe with.

Perhaps the OTU specific stuff could be highlighted or put in boxes or something in the text?

Is that the official statement ? (I don't have the announcement docs in front of me.)

Cap

 

[Allensh]

First, I hope nothing in the Mongoose version of Traveller EVER approaches the level of complexity of Fire, Fusion and Steel. THE one sure way to turn off new players from the game is to make it require scientific calculators, spreadsheets and/or an engineering degree to use the design rules. Absolutely no more complexity than High Guard or Striker!

Secondly, Traveller has to be Traveller. The alternate tech stuff can be in other books, although some in the core book would be ok as long as nothing important gets cut. I do not agree that after all these years we can go back to a "no Third imperium at all" core book.

Allen

 

[Mongoose Gar]

First, I hope nothing in the Mongoose version of Traveller EVER approaches the level of complexity of Fire, Fusion and Steel. THE one sure way to turn off new players from the game is to make it require scientific calculators, spreadsheets and/or an engineering degree to use the design rules.

Given I don't have an Engineering degree, this is a certainty!

 

[EDG]

First, I hope nothing in the Mongoose version of Traveller EVER approaches the level of complexity of Fire, Fusion and Steel. THE one sure way to turn off new players from the game is to make it require scientific calculators, spreadsheets and/or an engineering degree to use the design rules. Absolutely no more complexity than High Guard or Striker!

I'm not expecting massive complexity, but I also wouldn't want things so abstracted that I'm left wondering how what I'm seeing is even related to reality. Though again it does disturb me that educational standards appear to be so low nowadays that people are apparently terrified of seeing a square root sign anywhere.

Secondly, Traveller has to be Traveller. The alternate tech stuff can be in other books, although some in the core book would be ok as long as nothing important gets cut. I do not agree that after all these years we can go back to a "no Third imperium at all" core book.

I don't believe that the Traveller corebook will have any utility as a SF toolkit if it doesn't include alternate technologies and if it isn't as generic as possible. Throw in the OTU stuff as examples perhaps, but make sure it's as adaptable and open as possible.

Otherwise it basically makes a mockery of the "rulebook and setting book" approach that Mongoose has said they're taking.


For alternate techs I would at least expect a minimal treatment of the following (rules for use, and implications of use):

FTL drives: Warp drives (travelling through normal space at FTL speeds, eg Star Trek or 2300AD), Jump drives (where the ship travels from A to B in a fixed time (that could be zero)), Stargate drives (a la Buck Rogers, where the ship doesn't carry a jump drive but uses an external device to go FTL), Hyperdrives (where the ship enters another universe in which it can manoeuvre and possibly fight too, e.g. Babylon 5).

STL drives: Reactionless (e.g. Traveller's thruster plates), Chemical (e.g. HEPlaR, rocket drives)

Also I'd expect at least a minimal treatment of the following technologies: Biotech (basic genemods, artificial life, living spaceships etc), AI (robots, sentient ships, limited/full sentience etc), Nanotech (e.g. nanoswarms to replicators), Cyberware (artificial limbs to enhanced limbs).

(EDIT: To be fair, some of the *tech stuff is mentioned in the playtest doc, so that's good )


Otherwise, if these aren't in there then basically I can see no reason for anyone to adopt the Traveller rules for their SF games - particularly if they'll be released as OGL. The technological assumptions are what make SF settings unique - if the tools aren't provided in these rules to create a wide range of technological possibilities, then this project is about as useless for making ones own SF setting as CT was and one would be better off sticking with D20 Future or D6 Space or GURPS Space or HERO.

 

[AKAramis]

EDG:

Again, I think you mistake the approach to "genericness" that has been used by Mongoose...

They don't release a generic ruleset. they release a ruleset that is tailored to support the prime setting, but can be adapted to others. They also release a less specific to the default setting SRD. They then produce core rulebooks with compatible rules tailored to other settings, and supplements for the core line, the prime setting line, and each other setting line.

Kind of the LUG model for ST... there was a DS9, a Voyager, a TNG, and a Classic Trek rulebook, all using the same core. But the core itself was never released without a setting attached. Or the T2k/Dark Conspiracy/Cadillacs and Dinosaurs model, again, no "generic core" released; TNE was a significant deviation from the core. Not the GURPS nor Hero model of a single unified rulebook and nothing but supplements thereafter.

Since Judge Dredd is supposed to use the same engine, we'll probably see a fully stand-alone Judge Dredd core which will be missing ships, and have some different careers... but will be the same mechanics where not needing differences.

 

[EDG]

Again, I think you mistake the approach to "genericness" that has been used by Mongoose...

Maybe I am, but I'm one of these weirdos that thinks "generic" and "specific" have two separate meanings

They don't release a generic ruleset. they release a ruleset that is tailored to support the prime setting, but can be adapted to others. They also release a less specific to the default setting SRD.

But the SRD stuff is drawn from the main rulebook, right? That's how it usually works (e.g. with d20). And if the main rulebook lacks generic material then the SRD will as well, and then Mongoose are basically expecting everyone else to come up with the generic core that they should have come up with in the first place?

They then produce core rulebooks with compatible rules tailored to other settings, and supplements for the core line, the prime setting line, and each other setting line.

So they basically just add what ought to be core rules with each setting book, rather than just have a single ruleset that includes as much as possible? Seems unnecessarily convoluted to me.

Kind of the LUG model for ST... there was a DS9, a Voyager, a TNG, and a Classic Trek rulebook, all using the same core. But the core itself was never released without a setting attached.

Not a really good analogy then. Right from the start I thought the idea here was to release a generic SF ruleset (called "Traveller", based on CT rules) under OGL that could be used for the OTU or any other SF setting. Your LUG example was never intended to have the rules separate from the setting, but Traveller must do that if the OGL is to be any use.

 

[AKAramis]

Hardly, EDG, Hardly.

Each of the settings for LUG Trek is a variation on the core. THere are some setting specific additions in each. The same core engine was also used for Dune.

It's a matter of marketing. There are two strategies. The Monolithic Core and the Playable Setting.

Playable Setting Book lines:
Shillouette (1st gen): Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Tribe 8, Gear Krieg
Any Powered By GURPS line.
Any FUZION system book
D20 (for the most part), including Conan, Bab5, Arcana Unearthed....
LUG-Trek
RTG's Interlock: Cyberpunk (all 3 eds), Cybergeneration, Mekton (all editions)
Hero System prior to 4th ed Hero, but including the 4E version of Champions
Mongoose Runequest: Semi-Glorantha Core, Glorantha expansions, plus Elric and Hawkmoon playables.


Monolithic settingless Core:
GURPS
Hero System 4th and 5th eds (4E was also Champions 4E setting specific.)
Shillouette (2nd Gen)
Alternity
True20
Decipher Star Trek.

Both are valid and viable approaches.

Many more have adaptable setting-included cores.
D&D3E includes Greyhawk, but is readily adapted to FR and even Eberron.
Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, Traveller The New Era, Traveller 4, T20. T20 has a setting book released: 2320.
Blue Rose (became True20)
AEG's L5R. A variant, 7th Sea, was also released; same base mechanics, different stats....

 

[EDG]

OK, answer this question then, and this will become clearer for me:

Is MongTrav intended to provide an OGL toolkit that allows GMs to create their own SF settings with as wide a range of technologies and concepts as possible for them to choose from? (e.g. like GURPS Space, or Star HERO)

If it is, then the OTU is just one of those settings, and is no more or less special than Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, or anything else that Mongoose or anybody else publishes using the Traveller rules.

If it isn't, then why would anyone want to use these OGL rules for their SF settings when they still have to do a lot of work to develop technologies and assumptions that aren't covered in the OGL? (and I do note that the Runequest OGL rules haven't really been adopted by other publishers).

 

[AKAramis]

(and I do note that the Runequest OGL rules haven't really been adopted by other publishers).

GORE derives from them.

Several publishers dropped their plans.

 

[EDG]

GORE derives from them.

Several publishers dropped their plans.

That sounded very cryptic... what's GORE? And why did "publishers drop their plans"?

 

[AKAramis]

GORE derives from them.

Several publishers dropped their plans.

That sounded very cryptic... what's GORE? And why did "publishers drop their plans"?

In one case, the author for the project was hired full time for a different company.

In another, I have no idea at all, but they pulled their pages for their project.

GORE is a horror game designed to mimic Call of Cthulu using the material in the RQSRD as a basis.

 

[EDG]

Huh. Well either way, it still shows that the MRQ OGL hasn't really been adopted wholesale (certainly not on the same scale as d20 OGL). Maybe it's because it's still too runequest-specific?

 

[AKAramis]

Huh. Well either way, it still shows that the MRQ OGL hasn't really been adopted wholesale (certainly not on the same scale as d20 OGL). Maybe it's because it's still too runequest-specific?

Or, perhaps, the market is just saturated at the moment, and a die-off needs to happen again.

Or, perhaps, because Chaoisum just released a new version of BRP, and they want to see which percentile system will grab the fanbase.

After all, there really only are a handful of percentile based systems out there... BRP, MRQ, ICE (RM/SM/HARP), Paladium, and some small press and PDF only releases. Oh, and Hârnmaster.

Simbieda/Palladium seems unwilling to license, ICE seems unwilling to license... that leaves two semi-majors: MRQ and BRP. Hârnmaster is nothing special rules-wise (lots of rules clutter), but the world is one of the best developed realistic high fantasy settings... a direct competitor to Glorantha.

After all, any work on a sci-fi MRQ-SRD derived game is best waited to see what can be meshed into/with the Traveller SRD.

It's a thought I'd given consideration to doing, myself.