Tactical Withdrawl

[Sulfurdown]

Generally I've noticed that attempting to Jump out of a scenario is a last ditch attempt by ships that are too far away to make it to a board edge. Granted that in the series it's more impressive to throw down the vortex CGI, but it usually is the method of choice for ships to leave battles. The series likes one method and the game mechanics reflect the opposite, right now there doesn't seem to be any difference between the two in game outcome except that the egress jump is far more dangerous to a ship.

Since floating boards aren't easy to set up for ACTA and since I'd like to see cinematic jumping encouraged over pulling off a map edge, does anyone have house rules regarding the use of jump points over just running in realspace, particularly in campaigns?

Is there going to be any changes to the benefit/cost of running versus jumping for 2e, whether that's limiting where and when you can do either, or changing rules for how jumping/running affect ships?

Or is my experience, that people run far more often than jump out, unusual?

 

[katadder]

in campaigns at one point we only allowed escape via jump point as it is the only way in the show. the only way you can escape by running is if your ship is faster than everything in yur opponents fleet as otherwise they would just catch you.

 

[Ripple]

I suggest that we remove the limitations on initiate jump point as far as maneuver goes and placement goes.

We clearly see the Omegas and G'Quans do a stop and pivot to enter the jump points they create behind them. If you simply have a jump point stay open for the three turns, no additional orders needed, you might actually see that iconic moment of the big boys flipping around and jumping out.

As it stands, movement crits can stop you, no SA crits can stop you, being crippled (loss of jp) can stop you, skeleton crewed can stop you (no sa again)...simply too many ways to make it worth the effort, better off firing a few more dice.

Note the shadows don't try to destroy the G'Quans to stop them jumping out, they destroy the vortexs. Given how easy it is to destroy a G'Quan in the show for the shadows this should give us an indication of how hard it should be to stop a ship jumping out. (Or at least that's the story I'm using today...)

Ripple

 

[Burger]

Agree with Ripple, jumping out should be easier... but not too easy.

Yes running off a board edge is almost always easier than jumping out. But quite a few (non-tournament) scenarios have edge ownership, so running is not always that easy either. As for show realism, well they didn't have "board edges" in the show, so jumping was really the only way out.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I don't remember where I got this idea from, but what if the VP for a ship that jumps out is negated? So it gives you the option of running and giving the opponent VP or attempting to jump and get away clean?

What if the "Initiate Jump Point!" was treated like the Scout trait? Not quite a Special Action and possibly allow a ship to create a J/P while performing another Special Action?

 

[Sulfurdown]

in campaigns at one point we only allowed escape via jump point as it is the only way in the show. the only way you can escape by running is if your ship is faster than everything in yur opponents fleet as otherwise they would just catch you.

How did you account for ships without the jump point?

 

[katadder]

they cant escape plain and simple, hyperspace is the only escape method in B5.
you can obviously give them the option of playing fleet to the jump gate scenario.

 

[Burger]

they cant escape plain and simple, hyperspace is the only escape method in B5.

What about Raiders? They run away to their C&C ship, which provides the jump point for them.

 

[animus]

I always thought that the Activate Jump Point SA should include the effects of Close Blast Doors, giving the ship a little survivability bonus while it's a sitting duck.

 

[katadder]

they cant escape plain and simple, hyperspace is the only escape method in B5.

What about Raiders? They run away to their C&C ship, which provides the jump point for them.

which is a ship in the battle and can open a JP.

 

[Burger]

they cant escape plain and simple, hyperspace is the only escape method in B5.

What about Raiders? They run away to their C&C ship, which provides the jump point for them.

which is a ship in the battle and can open a JP.

The Raiders C&C ship is not in the battle, it is positioned a long way away where it is safe. Once the Raiders either complete their objective or run away, they return there and enter hyperspace.

 

[katadder]

except in B5 it is in battle as the only raiders C&C ship we saw was the strike carrier.
but again it would come down to speed, you can always play the old travelling board thing for fleeing ships.

 

[Da Boss]

Given that many battle are over stargetic points shouldn't jump gates be more common except obviously in deep space................

 

[Niemand]

I've always believed that the fleet that captured a target (Won the battle) wouldn't be able to pursue because they would be busy securing the space the just captured. And why would you ignore something of strategic value to chase down an already defeated enemy?

 

[Sulfurdown]

Interesting. - Give the winner the option of capturing the target or hunting down a withdrawing opponent and engage an annihilation scenario?

 

[Hugbiel]

Seem like a problem of translation from map to reality. Ships who leave the board are supposed to be out the action and can make their JP without distractions, or call a ship that can do it for them. But simetime it's so wrong. P

 

[CZuschlag]

Hey, slightly off the start of the thread's intent, but it's related to a Disengagement scenario ....

CASE 1:

A Drakh Carrier has been banged up, and is jumping out behore it eats First-Edition Hull 4 Beam Death (Medium Well Done, please.) Just before it runs through the jump point, a vulnerable and damaged Scout also decides discretion is the better part of valor and lands on the Carrier. The Carrier then beats feet, hoping that its Heavy Raiders can finish the job.

The fight was 7-Skirmish.

I know the Darkh gives the opponent 10 points (25% of 40) for the Carrier running offboard. But, does the Scout count as disengaged also
(and gives another 25% of 5 points) for another point, giving the opponent 11 points? (I think so.)

CASE 2:

Same as Case 1, but this time, it's one of the Carrier's own Heavy Raiders that's doing the running. It lands on the Carrier, and the Carrier jumps out. How many points does the opponent get -- 10 (the Carrier), or 13 (25% of 10 for the Heavy Raider is 2.5, which rounds up to 3)? (I think it's 13.)

CASE 3:

The Carrier didn't get to launch all its Huge Hangar ships, and leaves having never launched one Light Raider. How many points does the opponent get .... 10 or 13? (Now I'm in trouble.)

----

The reason I ask is that disengaging with Auxiliary Craft still onboard never cedes victory points, and Huge Hangar ships treat Raiders like Auxiliary Craft.

That and because I don't have my rulebook handy, and have no idea what the answer is.

EDIT: Sulfurdown below makes the good point that you can't land on a ship that is performing a special action right now either. I think he's right on this, so please forgive my oversight within the examples. Thank you.

 

[Sulfurdown]

HH treat Raiders/Scouts as AuxCraft for the purposes of launching. I believe the Drakh book even states that they will give Victory Points as normal ships. (have to check on that)

In the case of ships not launched - I'd expect you could use the same perspective as ships left in Hyperspace. If you didn't launch them, they don't effect the game, no VP.

EDIT

...If destroyed, the Raiders and Scouts will yield Victory Points normally.

Not explicit but I would infer then that they provide VP for departure. In the case of reloading the Carrier before it jumps; in order to use docking bay resources the ship can't be conducting a special action. So if the Carrier was the jump point generator if cannot take any ships on board prior to departure. If your light cruiser opened the point, however.... I've got nothing, too 50/50 for me to make a call on VP then.

 

[Burger]

In the case of ships not launched - I'd expect you could use the same perspective as ships left in Hyperspace. If you didn't launch them, they don't effect the game, no VP.

I believe that Matt ruled ships left in hyperspace do count as tactical withdrawls for VP purposes, at the Final Victory tournament. I got this info 3nd hand so can't verify it!

I'd say if raiders are docked then they don't yield VPs for tactical withdrawl, if they fly away/jump out on their own then they do.