Tachyon Anything

[Nerhesi]

Taking medium bays as an example with nothing but size reduction, the result is obvious in terms of tonnage comparison:

You have 7 Tachyon bays to each 10 particle bays. 450 power vs 300 power. So power delta is a whole 8 tons - negligible.

However, we cannot forget two other dynamics we touched upon:

a) Fixed number of hardpoints - You get 1 per 100 tons, so the weight issue of your bays only really becomes an issue if you're doing nothing but medium bays+.

b) Cost. At TL+3, Particle Beam Bay is 120 vs 90 for the Tachyon. A 4:3 cost ratio.


So basically, for every 3 particle bays, you can get 4 tachyons - Cost wise.
For every 7 tachyons, you get 10 particle bays - weight wise.

Thats almost dead even if you took them at equal value (which they aren't depending on your approach), if it wasn't for the fact that the tachyons are still out-damaging the particle bays.

It really isn't a drop-dead obvious choice. Could tachyons do with another 1D of damage? sure - I think we can make a lot of minor changes all over though - but this is by no means broken.

Perhaps we should look at the Large bay once MAtt makes them those "sniperish" bays you proposed

 

[Nerhesi]

Yup - I'll definitely try it out with the larger bays. I wasn't taking into account size reduction, but power is going to come into play (obviously less though than bay size), because we have to take into account the size of the powerplant required.

Cost is DEFINITELY a factor in capital ships, as me and you have pointed out earlier comparing TL15 ships for example to TL12s. If the Particle Cruiser is able to put out 30% more damage, but costs 100% more, then it may actually be a clear loser. Because in trillion credit squadron, actual sector/colonial/etc fleets, your limiting factor is usually how much budget you have allocated to that fleet.

Actually I'd still state in the bigger picture cost and power is still of relatively minimal importance Nerhesi. When you consider what the difference in power is, and what the difference in cost is, on what for many ships will be primary armament, their entire reason for existence, and then compare all the other power consumption and cost involved in getting this into space, it really is neither here nor there. As mentioned at TL 15 you're only loosing one 100 ton medium bay per approx. 20 you include due to power constraints on the worst case fusion weapon paradigm - that's not going to materially affect your choice. You might look at the balance compared to other weapons at lower tech levels, but at a ton or 2 either way it's got to be a small disparity in damage to be of consequence. Similarly paying a few extra million credits for better weaponry isn't an issue. A 0.01% increase on your ship cost for 10% increase on firepower? A no brainer.

Yeah but it becomes much more pronounced than 1% if you start going bigger and bigger.

If you go and make a cruiser that ends up having lets say 300 medium bays or so, each of which costs 30 more MCr, that is going to add up to a lot.

On smaller capitals, sure, because your cost is mostly engine, drive, armour, bridge etc etc... but if you look at the Fighting Ships supplement for example, there are some large large chunks that are weapon costs

 

[Chas]

Pfffttt... a triple advantaged medium bay particle accelerator = 120 MCr. x 300 you say?

36,000 MCr.

Superior Stealth for a 100,000 ton ship?

100,000 MCr

A drop in the bucket, sir. A drop in the bucket :mrgreen:

 

[Nerhesi]

Pfffttt... a triple advantaged medium bay particle accelerator = 120 MCr. x 300 you say?

36,000 MCr.

Superior Stealth for a 100,000 ton ship?

100,000 MCr

A drop in the bucket, sir. A drop in the bucket :mrgreen:

Yeah Rad shielding and Stealth do make things rather expensive don't they...

Granted the tachyon average damage is 3 per hit, meaning 900 more hull dmg on average - but yes, at the cost of 30000 tons vs 21000 tons

Ok let's hold on to this possible need for 1D more dmg for medium bays until we see the new large bays and address them both.

You've convinced me the medium bays could do with 1D more based on empirical evidence (or maybe just AP15 for medium/large and increase damage on large)

 

[Chas]

Have the AP go up to 15 and 20 for the medium and large bays respectively. It's okay to have something that's specifically good against a limited target, in fact that's one ideal where there are proper options for use case scenarios - in this situation having tachyon's that work well against buffered planetoids can be pretty much their reason for existence. If you're into system and planetary assault these become the weapon of choice.

 

[Nerhesi]

Have the AP go up to 15 and 20 for the medium and large bays respectively. It's okay to have something that's specifically good against a limited target, in fact that's one ideal where there are proper options for use case scenarios - in this situation having tachyon's that work well against buffered planetoids can be pretty much their reason for existence. If you're into system and planetary assault these become the weapon of choice.

Why 20? armour is limited by TL... planetoids are going to need the same errata that was forgotten in MGT1 until HG errata if they dont comply... which is the free armour still can't take you above TL.

 

[Chas]

Hmmm... I was following PsiTraveller's builds in that thread, but I see on a re-read of the Ship Design rules you're right.

 

[Nerhesi]

Hmmm... I was following PsiTraveller's builds in that thread, but I see on a re-read of the Ship Design rules you're right.

Phew - just double checked as well. There is a very precarious balance when you consider armour and damage relationships at barbette and lower levels. A +2 or +4 armour can easily destabilize the whole things... creating asteroid fighters and SDBs that are immune to almost all turrets and most of the average barbette damage

Ok now that this is done. I'm excited to see what the new large bays will look like so we can do any fine last adjustments to Tachyons

 

[PsiTraveller]

Ack, you are correct, I have made a huge error. Thanks for catching it.

"The Hull Armour table shows how much of the hull’s tonnage is consumed per point of armour
Protection added, along with its costs. A minimum TL is required for each type of armour, and there is
a maximum amount that can be attached to a hull – this includes any armour the ship had prior to
modification."

So the Tech Protection including the planetoid bonus is the TL.

Well there goes my immune to most Crits builds. Although 16 is still pretty good for armour. assuming Reflec is still added on.

Question: Let's assume Tl 13 for Crystal iron; Reflec will still increase by +3 correct? It is reflecting 3 points of damage before it hits the armour.
I want to double check to make sure I am not making another mistake.

 

[Nerhesi]

Reflec doesn't have the same stipulation so you can potentially hit 18 armour vs laser in the TL15 OTU

 

[PsiTraveller]

18 Armour would still make a ship tough to hurt

2D damage, +4 (assuming Triple Pulse Lasers) + Effect at Very Long or Long range would make it tough to get over 19 for damage and a Crit.

Still pretty good. it means Bonded Super Dense is needed not Crystal Iron, 17 limit for CrytalIron. Still not bad though,

 

[Nerhesi]

18 Armour would still make a ship tough to hurt

2D damage, +4 (assuming Triple Pulse Lasers) + Effect at Very Long or Long range would make it tough to get over 19 for damage and a Crit.

Still pretty good. it means Bonded Super Dense is needed not Crystal Iron, 17 limit for CrytalIron. Still not bad though,

Armour, along with M-Drive is one of those things for me that sticks out as "get the highest TL can afford, period." No argument. Benefits far out weigh the cost

 

[PsiTraveller]

Which is where it really shines with Planetoids. 4000 per ton cost vs 50 000 per ton cost, and armour is a percentage of hull cost, 5% for Crystaliron and 8% for Super Dense

1000 ton hull: 4 million for a buffered planteoid, 50 million for a spaceship.
9 points of CrystalIron for a buffered Planetoid: 1.8 million
11 points for a regular planetoid: 2.2 million
13 points for a regular ship: 32.5 million

The percentage loss in interior volume is the balance factor. To have the same interior space you need a larger ship, higher cost for M-Drives, J-Drives etc. But the armour cost will always be much cheaper.