T5 vs Mongoose Traveler

[captainjack23]

Okay, so it's a big hairy grudge with lots of big angry emotional baggage...

Sorry, I forgot that I'm expected to be a robot with no strong feelings about anything :roll: . I went into that T5 playtest with high expectations and no pre-assumptions - I came out of it sorely disappointed and feeling like I'd been taken for a ride and had my time wasted, and I had lost any respect I had for Marc because of that (and I wasn't the only one feeling that way. Marc lost a lot of potentially good playtesters because of the attitude he showed toward them - all that remained behind were a small hardcore crowd of sycophants). So you'll forgive me if I don't have happy feelings for the guy, and I suspect that most people put in that situation would feel the same way. If you think you're above that sort of thing then bully for you.

I'll keep mind in the future when you speak ex cathedra of CT, Marc and T5.

At least my opinions are based on the experiences I've had with those things. It's unfortunate that they're negative, but I don't see negativity as a reason to dismiss them.

That was years ago; you've attributed some rather nasty ideas/opinions to him regularly since then; and seldom missed an opportunity to rail against him, his playtesters, T5, and the CT community. For years. That goes beyond "negative feelings". Grudge is as grudge does.

Its your life, so all I really am going to say is that you're still a great resource, just with a big long term bias to be considered, and filtered. People with grudges are like that.

 

[EDG]

That was years ago; you've attributed some rather nasty ideas/opinions to him regularly since then; and seldom missed an opportunity to rail against him, his playtesters, T5, and the CT community. For years. That goes beyond "negative feelings". Grudge is as grudge does.

You know what, it really isn't your place to judge any of this. I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks of my opinions of Marc or their justifications. I have my reasons to dislike him and what he produces, and I'll keep doing that for as long as I choose. As you say, it's my life, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped opinionating on it.

 

[captainjack23]

That was years ago; you've attributed some rather nasty ideas/opinions to him regularly since then; and seldom missed an opportunity to rail against him, his playtesters, T5, and the CT community. For years. That goes beyond "negative feelings". Grudge is as grudge does.

You know what, it really isn't your place to judge any of this. I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks of my opinions of Marc or their justifications. I have my reasons to dislike him and what he produces, and I'll keep doing that for as long as I choose. As you say, it's my life, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped opinionating on it.

Well, given how often you speak publicly as an authority on Marc's motivations, and pontificate publicly on the fact that "traveller is broken, and I'm the man to fix it", it is.

If you post publicly about motivations of others, your motivations are a fair topic of interest in the public forum; particularly if it has the potential to be warping what is presented as sensible or professional input .

As to judging you, look back and tell me where I posted "...and this makes EDG a bad, bad man". I'm posting: "I'm surprised that he posts so much vitriol and often one-sided criticism about a man (and the system) he hasn't spoken with for years -I wonder if this effects his viewpoint or judgement. I'll have to keep this in mind."

To quote a phrase, If you feel judged, it is not I who judge.

 

[SableWyvern]

EDG, captainjack:

I just have to say that I am utterly amazed at the way you two have been going at each other constantly, and on a pretty personal level, in one thread or another, for months now (to no useful end whatsoever) ... yet, simultaneously, you happily debate and brainstorm away usefully and constructively in other (and sometimes the same) threads and actually achieve quite a bit.

The mind boggles.

(And, to be clear, there's no moral message in this post anywhere -- just an expression of my bemusement.)

 

[captainjack23]

Anyone stupid enough to pay MWM for a product not yet released (given the ease of finding out how BAD he is about meeting deadlines) does need to cope... or to sue him for false advertisement.

I'm not so stupid; Every product so far announced has been (AFAICT) late. Some a few days, others a few weeks, still others have been vaporware for years.

Nor am I stupid. I pre-ordered, and I know it'll be late; but for me, so what ? He has been very willing to correct errors in other transactions with him, and seems quite honest. If I want my money back, I'll get it, I have no doubt. In the meantime, it won't short my mortgage, or my children's shoes (do you have any idea how much childrens....wait. mustn't derail), That's coping, I think. In fact, given the number of games I've bought (with money I wont get back) and never played, its practically no different in terms of usefulness from most in my collection.

Outside of the big business giants of gaming (Hasbro, GW) late is more the norm in game publishing than not. That's not good, but it is. I believe this one may be delayed, and that, I think is a good thing. Sometimes late is because of concerns about quality and is to be lauded. Other times it's about....well, lets just say it is not to be lauded.

The whole "late product/vaporware" issue largely a product of internet advertising and public communication. Twenty years ago, products were late about as often, but the only people who were pissed off were the distributors...and some store owners who were puffed up by sales reps and/or silly distributors. vaporware was rare, as projects just didn;t get as much press or distribution to the gamers. And often as not, a product wasn't even solicited until it was in publication draft. Different world......

 

[EDG]

If you post publicly about motivations of others, your motivations are a fair topic of interest in the public forum;

Oh, they really bloody well aren't. My motivations aren't up for questioning here, and neither are anyone else's. You talk about what we're talking about, not why we're talking about it - because otherwise it gets personal. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you before.

 

[captainjack23]

EDG, captainjack:

I just have to say that I am utterly amazed at the way you two have been going at each other constantly, and on a pretty personal level, in one thread or another, for months now (to no useful end whatsoever) ... yet, simultaneously, you happily debate and brainstorm away usefully and constructively in other (and sometimes the same) threads and actually achieve quite a bit.

The mind boggles.

(And, to be clear, there's no moral message in this post anywhere -- just an expression of my bemusement.)

I think its academic training..not being condescending, but compartmentalization like that is part and parcel of grad school and research. Probably unhealthy, but at least it allows us to add something other than bitching to the forum.

And , by the way, thanks for mentioning that part.

 

[EDG]

EDG, captainjack:

I just have to say that I am utterly amazed at the way you two have been going at each other constantly, and on a pretty personal level, in one thread or another, for months now (to no useful end whatsoever) ... yet, simultaneously, you happily debate and brainstorm away usefully and constructively in other (and sometimes the same) threads and actually achieve quite a bit.

It's because elsewhere he has the decency to just focus on the subject at hand and not try to get inside my head and question why I'm doing or saying things. If he continues to do that instead of making pithy comments about the reasons for my opinions then we can get somewhere.

Though really I guess I should just ignore his more personal questions, since he appears to be incapable of refraining from going there.

 

[captainjack23]

EDG, captainjack:

I just have to say that I am utterly amazed at the way you two have been going at each other constantly, and on a pretty personal level, in one thread or another, for months now (to no useful end whatsoever) ... yet, simultaneously, you happily debate and brainstorm away usefully and constructively in other (and sometimes the same) threads and actually achieve quite a bit.

It's because elsewhere he has the decency to just focus on the subject at hand and not try to get inside my head and question why I'm doing or saying things. If he continues to do that instead of making pithy comments about the reasons for my opinions then we can get somewhere.

Though really I guess I should just ignore his more personal questions, since he appears to be incapable of refraining from going there.

How 'bout this: you stop going off on Marc and T5 here in the mongoose traveller forum, and I'll stop asking if it is clouding your judgement, and suggesting that it is.

Deal ?

 

[EDG]

How 'bout this: you stop going off on Marc and T5 here in the mongoose traveller forum, and I'll stop asking if it is clouding your judgement, and suggesting that it is.

Deal ?

How about we both just shut up about the damn thing. I'm certainly not going to stop going off on him just to get you off my back, but I will gladly stop because we've been over all this before and all you're doing is drawing it out again because apparently you have nothing better to do (though quite why you give so much of a damn about the motivations for my opinions is beyond me. Even if you believe that they're fair game here, there's still no reason whatsoever for you to keep poking me so much, particularly when I've told you before to back off).

 

[captainjack23]

How 'bout this: you stop going off on Marc and T5 here in the mongoose traveller forum, and I'll stop asking if it is clouding your judgement, and suggesting that it is.

Deal ?

How about we both just shut up about the damn thing. I'm certainly not going to stop going off on him just to get you off my back, but I will gladly stop because we've been over all this before and all you're doing is drawing it out again because apparently you have nothing better to do (though quite why you give so much of a damn about the motivations for my opinions is beyond me. Even if you believe that they're fair game here, there's still no reason whatsoever for you to keep poking me so much, particularly when I've told you before to back off).

sold.

 

[MJD]

Wow. That was a lot of extraneous arguing to wade through.

Bottom line is, as far as I know, The June 2007 date was concrete and even just days before it arrived it was still being reported as concrete. Jan 08 was solid and that wasn't changed unil about the 25th or something. I remain unconvinced about this new deadline, and in any case that's for the non-final PDF version.

My general feeling is that we may never see a final version of T5. Marc will be too tempted to keep trying to make it a bit more perfect. The only way to avoid that temptation is to have a deadline (a sensible one) and hit it.

I've found this ever since I became a professional author. I'm tempted to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite and... but I have to draw a line and get on with the next job. That way there's actually a 'finished' version to go to the publisher. It'll never be perfect but there's a limit to how long you can polish the same spot.

If Marc wants to produce T5 and get it out, that's what needs to happen. A deadline that can realistically be met, plus an intent to actually meet it. Complete the book, polish off the rough spots and draw a line under it.

That does mean setting a deadline a long way off if a lot of work is needed. But people do lose interest in a project that's 'definite' at a certain time even though it's obvious the deadline can't be met, then slides back, and again. And again.


If you keep making promises and not delivering - however good your reasons - then people will lose interest. I guess that's not a problem if T5 is Marc's personal project that he's alllowing other people to buy. For a serious commercial effort it would be a guarantee of failure.

There comes a point where you might as well be shouting GET YOUR VAPORWARE HERE! - for all the notice people will take. That's to be avoided if possible.

 

[rje]

Wow. That was a lot of extraneous arguing to wade through.

Yah, and it seems to have a low signal-to-noise ratio.

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

<.....muttermutterMopmutterHivermutter...>
...dunno why MWM didn't just class T20 as T5 during its development or, for that matter, why he doesn't just class MGT as T5 and be done with it...
<...muttermuttermutterHivermutterMopmutter......>

 

[dmccoy1693]

Question: Does anyone else think (wonder) if the licencing fee that Mongoose paid Miller to use Traveller enabled him to spend more time to work on T5?

 

[dmccoy1693]

<.....muttermutterMopmutterHivermutter...>
...dunno why MWM didn't just class T20 as T5 during its development or, for that matter, why he doesn't just class MGT as T5 and be done with it...
<...muttermuttermutterHivermutterMopmutter......>

If its one thing I learned from my last job as a process engineer stuck in middle management, its "Never assume that a smart business decision can overcome pride or the need to save face." Certainly was true for my old boss.

 

[Traveller]

Question: Does anyone else think (wonder) if the licencing fee that Mongoose paid Miller to use Traveller enabled him to spend more time to work on T5?

No. He's working on it no more or less now than he was before the deal.