T5 Has Arrived!

[GamerDude]

Well I trudged out through the snow, which was fun since from Wed night (the 17th) through yesterday we've received over three feet of snow.

I'm glad I did because the Traveller 5 CDROM was in my mailbox! YEAH!

When you pop in the disk a web page starts up with a chapter listing and this intro:

This disk contains the preliminary Version 5.0 texts for Traveller 5 -- the 5th (and aspiring to be ultimate) edition of Traveller. The PDF files themselves are provided here in multiple versions: a massive 500+ page Master Text, some 30 chapters as individual files, and smaller component files within those chapters. The links on this page lead to the various files, which are also accessible directly.

I'll have more once I get through my first decent look-see.

 

[Sstefan]

The following is a cut and paste.....The forum mentioned in the text refers to COTI

Marc asked me to post this for him...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery
Since I've just finished shipping the T5 pre-order CDs up to this point, I now want to address several of the questions raised about T5 and its future in the past several days: where we are today, and where we are going.

All of you paid (and some of you long ago) for a CD with the preliminary edition of T5. Now that the working drafts have developed enough to allow for a solid foundation, we want to get that foundation out to everyone who paid for it, and not just the 400 or so members of the T5 online forum. This distribution builds the ground floor for future T5 development. When you receive the CD, please look it over. One of the key features will be the ability for owners to pull down file updates, even without forum access. The forum will, however, continue to be the focus for development feedback and organizing the effort.

This release is NOT the end. Half of our pre-orders have never seen a draft -- this simply gets the preliminary edition in their hands. Could I have waited longer, for more errata fixes? Yes. But that becomes self-defeating, as there's always more work to wait on. I made the decision that we needed to start somewhere. But the development process continues. Rob is pulling together BCS notes, some of you have asked about robots or animal encounters, etc... When will T5 be ready for a printer? Don made me promise to stop mentioning dates. But we are looking at demonstration games for highlighting the mechanics for the 2009 convention season. And there's more coming.

I do still have one request... I believe we have found that keeping our focus on rules development and detail has paid off, and so I am requesting that you continue to keep T5 "under wraps" in public. Please make what copies you need to run campaigns and test. I am simply asking that for public issues on the internet, let's keep working the way we have for the last eight months. We've come a long way, but we still have a long way to go!

 

[rust]

On the one hand, I understand and accept that Marc Miller wants to keep
this playtest version of T5 "under wraps". On the other hand, this prevents
me from ordering the CD, because I am not willing to pay 35,- USD for "a
cat in a bag".

 

[Libris]

On the one hand, I understand and accept that Marc Miller wants to keep
this playtest version of T5 "under wraps". On the other hand, this prevents
me from ordering the CD, because I am not willing to pay 35,- USD for "a
cat in a bag".

Well, I paid my money and have to say that the resulting output is...copius. And about ten times more complicated than it needs to be; shades of "Dangerous Journeys" as a previous comment put it. That said, I have been a Traveller fan since day one - read the review in White Dwarf (issue six I think it was) and me and my wallet were hooked from there.

The information is fantastic but seems to be written by someone who knows all the rules, keeps the majority in their head and only needs to write down the tables for reference - it is not what I would call user friendly. In fact, I have some Visual Basic and Excel manuals which are easier on the brain.

I have to say that unless the rules system is explained in more detail then I can see this being consigned to the bookcase as "inexpensive curiosity" shelved between Dangerous Journeys and Aria the mind fuck and to be looked at when everything on Call of Duty has been killed thrice over.

Still, the $35 does give you some access to some interesting aspects of the forum and costs less than a parking ticket; which have indeed cost more and engaged me somewhat less... The ticket did have some interesting bar codes on it though...

 

[rust]

In fact, I have some Visual Basic and Excel manuals which are easier on the brain.

Thank you very much, this is all I needed to know to make a decision. :lol:

 

[Sturn]

The information is fantastic but seems to be written by someone who knows all the rules, keeps the majority in their head and only needs to write down the tables for reference...

You put into words exactly one of my feelings about T5. I just thought I might be a little dense. :wink: That being said, as I begin to comprehend more and more of the rules systems, I begin to like them more and more. Not love them yet, but so far I've just been dating my T5 CD on the weekends. :lol:

 

[Dave Chase]

Being a want-be-gearhead of sorts I am enjoying the T5 experience some.

But I do have to agree with Libris's comments about it.
And Sturn makes a good point about it also. T5 is coming along but it is not a smooth sit down and read a good book, Yet.

I am hoping (and counting on) it being more than a designers (gearhead's) dream. FFS did that and I don't really want another one of those.

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

Still, the $35 does give you some access to some interesting aspects of the forum and costs less than a parking ticket; which have indeed cost more and engaged me somewhat less... The ticket did have some interesting bar codes on it though...

Let's see if I can comment and ask some simple questions about this (since apparently talking about T5 itself is out of the question) without being shrieked at, because I am genuinely curious about this:

The impression I get is that what's been released on CD is basically the first draft of the rules, correct? So it's had no actual playtesting done as yet, it's equivalent to what authors would submit to other RPG publishers before it goes out to get playtested, right?

If that's the case, then what exactly have people paid $35 for up to now? The privilege of watching someone else write a book? Have those who have pre-ordered and posted on the private forum actually had significant input in the development of T5 over the past three years or so?

And also, this traditionally really isn't the phase of production that other people should be involved with in the first place. Usually the author(s) writes the book on his own, and then it gets playtested by others. Here though it seems that the author is writing with other people being somehow involved (I dunno if they're watching, or editing, or what), and then those same people are playtesting it - and that seems like a very dangerous way to do it, because surely you want people who haven't been involved in the creation of the project playtesting it, so you can get more objective opinions about it? That alone removes any confidence I have in the playtest process.

It also seems to me to be a really weird way to go about financing an RPG. It's not a "ransom model" (like what Greg Stolze does) where the author says "here's what I have planned - send me X amount of money and I'll write and release it when I reach that amount". And it's not a proper pre-order where the publisher says "we're releasing X, send us money now and we'll send you a copy". Instead it seems more like "send me $35 and I'll spend an indeterminate amount of time (that turned out to be a few years) writing stuff and then you can get a first draft on CD, and then we'll actually do the thing that requires your input". In a more conventional business model, wouldn't now be the time to start asking people for pre-orders, when a product has actually been written?

The way this whole endeavour has been handled from start to finish just seems very strange to me.

 

[GypsyComet]

The impression I get is that what's been released on CD is basically the first draft of the rules, correct? So it's had no actual playtesting done as yet, it's equivalent to what authors would submit to other RPG publishers before it goes out to get playtested, right?

First draft is probably a bit of a misnomer. In software parlance this would be a beta, possibly a mid-process beta at that. In other words, generally feature-complete but missing the fine (and sometimes not so fine) tuning.

 

[captainjack23]

The information is fantastic but seems to be written by someone who knows all the rules, keeps the majority in their head and only needs to write down the tables for reference...

You put into words exactly one of my feelings about T5. I just thought I might be a little dense. :wink: That being said, as I begin to comprehend more and more of the rules systems, I begin to like them more and more. Not love them yet, but so far I've just been dating my T5 CD on the weekends. :lol:

I'm thinking that as it stands now, it seems to work very well as a set of advanced modules for MGT -or CT, if you prefer. Most of the framework does seem to be provided by the basic sets. I have no idea if that is the plan, but it does fit in well with it's original description as a superset of MGT. I have to say that its a refreshing change from having to by the basic rules again for new editions.

But hey, I'm guessing. Thus far, I really really enjoy it. I've certainly spent 35 dollars and gotten less material and had less fun....quite recently, actually...but I won't start a scrum by naming names.

 

[captainjack23]

First draft is probably a bit of a misnomer. In software parlance this would be a beta, possibly a mid-process beta at that. In other words, generally feature-complete but missing the fine (and sometimes not so fine) tuning.

Yeah. That describes it very well. It's much tighter and consistent than a first draft. But then, different people have different expectations about what a draft should be, (and this includes the software industry and its efforts to redefine "beta" as "final". I'll just say, that if this is a first draft, its astonishingly well presented - as a beta, it is quite servicable.

 

[EDG]

First draft is probably a bit of a misnomer. In software parlance this would be a beta, possibly a mid-process beta at that. In other words, generally feature-complete but missing the fine (and sometimes not so fine) tuning.

To be honest I think all the talk here and elsewhere of "alphas" and "betas" is muddying the water unnecessarily. Let's be clear about this - we're not talking about software here (and no, even though it's a bunch of PDFs, that doesn't mean it's software ), we're talking about RPG books.

The way that RPG writing normally works is that an author submits a first draft, then that draft gets playtested, and then the author makes corrections based on that playtest, and then it might go through another playtest/correction cycle, and then it goes into final editing/layout and then printing. Mongoose did something similar for MGT, but what was presented (gradually, IIRC) in the public playtest was a fully written first draft of each chapter, which was then playtested and argued over, and then they made changes based on that, and then it went back to playtest briefly and then the final changes were made behind the scenes based on those suggestions.

So to avoid confusion I think the only descriptions that are really meaningful in this context are "first draft", "playtest version", or "final draft". The first draft is basically how the authors want the book to be without any external input. The playtest draft is a transitional phase where other people try the product and provide feedback to the author, who then (hopefully) makes changes as necessary based on their suggestions. The final draft is what you get after that process is complete, which hopefully is a book that is ready for publication, and true to the original vision but with all the bugs, inconsistencies and problematic issues ironed out.

So given all that... is this T5 CD at the "first draft" level? It sounds like that is the case, and that everything up to this point took place during the writing of the first draft. Or is it before that (and if that's true, then why has it been "released" when it's not ready for consideration)? Or is it at some blurry stage between "first draft" and "playtest draft" where it's already been influenced by others even during the initial writing process?

 

[GamerDude]

Ok, I know I've been lurking on the MGT forums for quite some time, for a variety of reasons. I got the T5 CDROM and was so excited I just had to post it was here. So let me poke my head a little further out of my hidden lair for some comments.

Let's see if I can comment and ask some simple questions about this (since apparently talking about T5 itself is out of the question) without being shrieked at

There is a place to talk about the mechanics as they stand so far, over on CotI.

The impression I get is that what's been released on CD is basically the first draft of the rules, correct? So it's had no actual playtesting done as yet, it's equivalent to what authors would submit to other RPG publishers before it goes out to get playtested, right?

Much, if not all, of the material on the CDROM was available on the closed CotI forum accessible by those who preordered the T5 CDROM. Feedback on the document was given by many people. As it says on the credits page at the end of the list of author/contributor credits "And an army of dedicated, helpful playtesters".

If that's the case, then what exactly have people paid $35 for up to now? The privilege of watching someone else write a book? Have those who have pre-ordered and posted on the private forum actually had significant input in the development of T5 over the past three years or so?

Well, without comparing all the playtest documents, all the playtester comments on CotI (and whatever might have been send via email) and what was released on the CDROM--the only person who can answer that is Marc.

...That alone removes any confidence I have in the playtest process.

It also seems to me to be a really weird way to go about financing an RPG. It's not a "ransom model" (like what Greg Stolze does) where the author ...
The way this whole endeavour has been handled from start to finish just seems very strange to me.

Well, from the very first Marc clearly stated people who were pre-paying for the finished CDROM would also get this pre-release version. In the meantime Marc opened the material up for wider playtest, restricted to those who pre-ordered, on the CotI forums. Yeah, if you were paying just to playtest then that doesn't jive, but the playtest part was well after the product was offered for preordering.

Note, Quicklink Interactive took preorders for their d20 version of Traveller, aka T20. They had an inital release date of the final book, and then the product was so late that I had written it off as money lost (yes I preordered it the moment I saw the notice for it, which since I was regularly on their site because of purchasing GRIP was fairly early).

Personally, if you weren't part of the playtest, for whatever reason, oh well. If how T5 came into being doesn't jive with whatever notions or experiance someone has about the RPG publishing industry, oh well... Those of use who wanted to support the project preordered, got in on the playtesting (if we wished) and now have a very nice CDROM filled with all kinds of T5 goodness that we can tear into and provide further feedback to Marc and his team.

{{returns to his secret lair to lurk again}}

 

[rust]

Right now I would only be interested in T5 as a means to fill some of
the remaining gaps of the "system side" of my setting: vehicle design,
robot design, plus some more futuristic equipment.

However, complicated or dense systems are not what I am looking for,
I could just use GURPS if I wanted this. So T5 will perhaps become in-
teresting for me somewhen in the future, but at the moment I am not
curious enough to get involved.

 

[EDG]

GamerDude - you keep talking about "playtest documents" and "playtesting", but how much of that has really been done already with the T5 docs?

That's what I'm not clear on - has T5 actually been playtested yet? Because the impression I have from what others involved in its development have said is that it really hasn't, and that only now has it got to the stage where it could be - it's just been written is all. Which makes me wonder what influence or involvement (if any) the people who have pre-paid for it have had so far.

 

[captainjack23]

Right now I would only be interested in T5 as a means to fill some of
the remaining gaps of the "system side" of my setting: vehicle design,
robot design, plus some more futuristic equipment.

However, complicated or dense systems are not what I am looking for,
I could just use GURPS if I wanted this. So T5 will perhaps become in-
teresting for me somewhen in the future, but at the moment I am not
curious enough to get involved.

Actually, the vehicle and ship design systems (as well as robots, artificials and sophonts) are quite usable, nor particulalry dense (YMMV). For those that have counterparts, I'd rate them as above CT/MGT and below MT. Also, theres a very good common design system and flow that has been used for most of the same, and they all mesh rather well.

There's lots of detail that sits well atop MGT, and is more compatable in many ways than MT did with CT, and certainbly it is certainly better integrated than dispersed design rulesets like MT ( and obviously the divergent system or divergent author iterations(T4/TNE)). I suspect that in terms of playtest development, it's gotten at least as much as MGT, and at least as much system proofchecking and validation. As with MGT, the meat of the playtesting was done in house I'm thinking.

Looking at it, it obviously has been playtested and honed -just not by me.

So, honestly, my call is that it's not much more than an MGT rulesbook (stateside, YMMV), and has lots of useful stuff as is -particulalry if you have MGT. It isn't the final version, true, so how much of your own homebrewing you feel like doing is your call. If you absolutely want a pristine consumer product, with all the basic roleplaying advice and help, painstakingly explained setting systems and fiction, then this isn't it yet -if ever. But then again, its a standard that few gaming products hit with regards to typos and ooops items.

 

[rust]

If you absolutely want a pristine consumer product, with all the basic roleplaying advice and help ...

Unfortunately this is what I have to look for, because otherwise I would
have to translate and explain it to the players of my campaign - many
of them have problems with English, and once terms get technical and
sentences get long, they tend to strike the flag ...

 

[captainjack23]

If you absolutely want a pristine consumer product, with all the basic roleplaying advice and help ...

Unfortunately this is what I have to look for, because otherwise I would
have to translate and explain it to the players of my campaign - many
of them have problems with English, and once terms get technical and
sentences get long, they tend to strike the flag ...

Oh Gosh, that's right ! Sorry, Rust, your English is so excellent, I forget about that issue with you & your gaming group. Yeah, it might be problematic in that sense.

 

[AKAramis]

From what has been discussed, T5 sounds very much like a late alpha, not a beta.

 

[rpg]

From what has been discussed, T5 sounds very much like a late alpha, not a beta.

From my reading of the COTI forum & the drafts, I'd have to disagree.

I believe An inner circle have been carrying out limited playtests. The basic mechanics are pretty much set in stone, before being listed for perorders to download. Most of the errors listed are either typos or requests to clarify individual portions of the rules.

To use the Alpha - Beta analogue, Microsoft's equivalent might be a second service fix [It basic works OK for most of the time but can cause problems with the occasional as yet unexplained feature]

The files on the preliminary CD are more playable than several of the published paper games rules I've brought in the past. I think several of the rules need a little more tweaking, but thats been true of every game I've ever got. Normally this has just been a case of adding house rules but with T5 theres actually a chance to get them reconsidered.

If a problem is highlighted on the forum & I don't like the fix, there's still the option of house rules... At least with T5 others more skilled in game design than me get to rethink the problem, and the chances are their fix will be better than my house rule.