Sweet!!! Are "battleships" going to make a comeba

what would be the point? we dont have the wars like we used to. cruise missiles and other very accurate things are the weapons of use in todays warfare. when was the last time a beach assault needed battleship support? aircraft and various missiles are all you need.

1991 - Gulf War I

Admittedly the amphibious landing was a diversionary tactic, but it could have been the main thrust as well.

It won't be much use finding insurgents in Baghdad.

Probably not. . . Baghdad is more than 250 mi from the coast right? And this action will be LONG over before they get really big ranges on these things. But anything closer to the coast and in the future, it would be very nice to have a ship sitting offshore, and just be able to call in a pinpoint strike that only costs a few thousand dolllars and levels a particular building.

No multimillion dollar aircraft (manned or unmanned) needed, no expensive guided missiles in limited supply. Just cheap rounds that can be manufactured and stored by the thousands.
 
The US landing in '91 had naval gunnery support because the ship was available, I seem to recall, not because it was really needed. Air support would have been more valuable than a traditional artillery barrage delivered from a battleship anyway.

Mind you, the shots of Missouri blazing away with her (bloody enormous) main armament made for some good PR material. That's today's war, ladies and gentlmen. Splattering a bunch of Iraqis with 16" monster guns is entirely secondary to convincing the electorate that "America still kicks ass" or whatever slogans were used. The future of warfare - public relations. Disheartening, isn't it?
 
Splattering a bunch of Iraqis with 16" monster guns is entirely secondary to convincing the electorate that "America still kicks ass" or whatever slogans were used. The future of warfare - public relations. Disheartening, isn't it?

Always has been important.

In fact, just goes to support what I've always thought. That we ought to have some gigantic battleship as the flagship of the U.S. fleet more as a symbolic showpiece than an actual warship.
 
Erm am I missing thing, if it fires in that high an arc pretty much the only impact it will have is the shells mass falling at terminal velocity i.e. all the energy would be expended in the going up portion and all we'd have is a falling lump especially if used at shorter ranges???

The advantages in the energy of a railgun of this sort would be maximised in the flattest direct fire situations and lessen dramatically in plunging fire.

Or am I missing something?


Vadrus
 
Soulmage said:
Just cheap rounds that can be manufactured and stored by the thousands.
And fired by hundreds of thousands just because this kind of weapon needs an extremal precision, unachievable at even fractions of this distance.
Basically instead of spending 10.000.000$ on a single missile doing damage in 8 minutes nation will have to cough up 50.000.000+$ (slugs + fuel, spares, food, spotters costs, crew salary, etc, etc... multiplied by number of ships within the squadron) in order to do the same amount of damage in three weeks. Now that's modern economy :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Iowa class battleships were made to be immune to 18.6" projectiles which any ship-to-ship missile would only aspire to in its dreams :wink: . Warships of today use light alloys in their superstructures which basically ignore any thought of protection. In other words boys, they made 'em tough back in those days. I'm not saying it would be impossible to sink an Iowa (oh heck, no) but it would be hard!

On the subject of "inert" projectiles dropping out of the sky, just consider the energy created by falling meteors. Terminal velocity should mean conversion into energy and a shock wave that would not just make a hole but possibly destroy the structure. Combine thermobaric munitions with a railgun and you'd have a nasty weapon combo.
 
Makoto said:
Soulmage said:
Just cheap rounds that can be manufactured and stored by the thousands.
And fired by hundreds of thousands just because this kind of weapon needs an extremal precision, unachievable at even fractions of this distance.
Basically instead of spending 10.000.000$ on a single missile doing damage in 8 minutes nation will have to cough up 50.000.000+$ (slugs + fuel, spares, food, spotters costs, crew salary, etc, etc... multiplied by number of ships within the squadron) in order to do the same amount of damage in three weeks. Now that's modern economy :lol: :lol: :lol:

All those costs apply to cruise missiles too. Takes months to get there and back, plus hanging around on station. The actual "combat time" is minimal with either weapon system.

If you want to take out a room in the corner of one building, use a cruise missile. If you want to drop the whole building, you could use one of these rail guns. There is no reason they couldn't be extremely precise. JDAM munitions kits have shown that!
 
Soulmage said:
Makoto said:
Soulmage said:
Just cheap rounds that can be manufactured and stored by the thousands.
And fired by hundreds of thousands just because this kind of weapon needs an extremal precision, unachievable at even fractions of this distance.
Basically instead of spending 10.000.000$ on a single missile doing damage in 8 minutes nation will have to cough up 50.000.000+$ (slugs + fuel, spares, food, spotters costs, crew salary, etc, etc... multiplied by number of ships within the squadron) in order to do the same amount of damage in three weeks. Now that's modern economy :lol: :lol: :lol:

All those costs apply to cruise missiles too. Takes months to get there and back, plus hanging around on station. The actual "combat time" is minimal with either weapon system.

If you want to take out a room in the corner of one building, use a cruise missile. If you want to drop the whole building, you could use one of these rail guns. There is no reason they couldn't be extremely precise. JDAM munitions kits have shown that!

Here is the US Air Force's new GBU-39/B "kinder and gentler" smart bomb with its decreased blast area of 26 feet:

http://www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/gbu39/gbu39.htm

BTW, the impact videos are pretty neat. I really like the "diamond-back" glide wing package they mounted on it too. :D It appears that an F-15E might be able to eventually carry 20 of these on a single mission. I'm impressed! :!:
 
BuShips said:
I can see the title of a future history book even now:

"Death From Above: Railway Guns to Rail Guns; A complete history"

:wink:

Now for something more ominus to consider. Those that knew of Gerald Bull's "Supergun" whos origin dated back to the WW2 German veangence weapon called the V-3 can now imagine that what Iraq failed to do with Mr. Bull Iran can do with railgun technology :shock: . Don't think that the Israelis aren't considering what this technology would mean to their safety and to world peace in general. We all might be playing the equivalent of the first video game of space invaders for real some day :roll: .

I have no problem recommisioning the four Iowas as railgun platforms and the faster the better. :idea:

Wasnt that guy assassinated by Massada(sp?) That was the one with a range of like 600 miles? I heard of it before.

As for the Iowa's, are they still useable? I would think they would be rusty and all decrepit and stuff, and it would probably cost more to recommission them(including the cost for replacing non-working parts and getting it back into ship-shape) than to just build 4 NEW Iowa's with the necessary nuclear powerplantS(the S is important, the more you have, the more railguns it can handle) and stuff part of the initial design.

Reply with quote
A 3 kg piece of iron flying into a building and we get... a hole in the building with occupants gazing in surprise at it. WHy? Because the impact itself will minimise the damage to the target, the slug will just fly through without doing any significant damage to the structure itself unless it'll accidently fly along the supporting wall
.
Sure, will be efficient against vehicles/aircrafts (providing the system will be capable of hitting any of those), and even ships when hitting them below waterline, but as a bombardment means it'll be nearly useless.

Incorrect. A railgun is a kinetic weapon. The damage would be extreme. In addition, at the speed the projectile would be flying at, all of the occupants of the building(or at least those on the same floor) would be ripped through the exit hole in an extremely violent and bloody manner, regardless of whether or not they were hit by the projectile.

The rail gun is just a means of propelling the round. There's no reason you could use explosive shells with it. At least, no reason I understand. Roll on the physics professors to prove me wrong...

Except that at the speeds it would be moving at, and the presence of a magnetic field would probably cause the projectile to explode before it left the barrel. Thats bad, mmkay? I might be wrong, but, oh well...

Erm am I missing thing, if it fires in that high an arc pretty much the only impact it will have is the shells mass falling at terminal velocity i.e. all the energy would be expended in the going up portion and all we'd have is a falling lump especially if used at shorter ranges???

I pretty much said the exact same thing. If youre missing something, I am too.

And fired by hundreds of thousands just because this kind of weapon needs an extremal precision, unachievable at even fractions of this distance.

Incorrect, yet again. The Railgun isn't like your gunpowder artillery weapon, it follows a much straighter, much more accurate, much more calculatable flightpath than a gunpowder shell would. In addition, provided the ship doesn't move, it could keep the gun at the same elevation and expect to hit the same exact spot again and again.

Iowa class battleships were made to be immune to 18.6" projectiles which any ship-to-ship missile would only aspire to in its dreams Wink . Warships of today use light alloys in their superstructures which basically ignore any thought of protection. In other words boys, they made 'em tough back in those days. I'm not saying it would be impossible to sink an Iowa (oh heck, no) but it would be hard!

So then why was it that aircraft posed such a threat to the BB?

Anyway, does anyone else here just want to see what happens when you aim this thing at a mountain? I just keep getting these images of a battleship-like vessel sitting out at see and unloading its guns, and then all of a sudden it cuts to the view of a silent, peaceful mountain and BAM! out of nowhere a shitload of dust and dirt and smoke and large chunks of rock come flying off of the side of it leaving a ginormous impact crater, and many very confused-looking onlookers who cant figure out what just happened...
 
Chernobyl said:
http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/Features/BuildBetter.htm

interesting article on BB comparison...

Chern

Yes that's a good page, but I have a quibble with the Bismarck's rate of fire. I really do not think 3 rds./min. is realistic as many other sources take it down to 2-2.5 rds./min. at best. Not that rate of fire is not important (it is!) but I think he's being a little generous with a legend of WW2 (with apologies to Johnny Horton, lol). My favorite site for the ultimate comparison is at http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm. This is downright fun to read and they really get into the meat of the statistics. Both are good sites for battleship fans to drool over :D .
 
chaos0xomega said:
Wasnt that guy assassinated by Massada(sp?) That was the one with a range of like 600 miles? I heard of it before.

Yuppers, they wacked him. It was just their way of saying "Good idea you have there, buddy." :shock:

chaos0xomega said:
As for the Iowa's, are they still useable? I would think they would be rusty and all decrepit and stuff, and it would probably cost more to recommission them(including the cost for replacing non-working parts and getting it back into ship-shape) than to just build 4 NEW Iowa's with the necessary nuclear powerplantS(the S is important, the more you have, the more railguns it can handle) and stuff part of the initial design.

This is the same argument that preceded the successful recommissioning of several of the class like as many as maybe three times :) . First, there is no rust as when they are "mothballed" critical components are sealed from the environment and dehumidified. The hull has a low-voltage current passed through it to resist organic growth, so the ships do store quite well. The method of their construction is far superior to any ships being built now as AP projectiles were many times more damaging than cruise missiles. For example, in WW2 a kamikaze hit the side of the Missouri (a serious mistake on the pilot's part) and after hosing off the deck the only damage was paint. These ships have paid many times back what it cost to build them, as in one of their comebacks in the 1980's the original cost of the ship was less than the refit bill. These ships really are a "breed apart" from anything anyone builds today.

chaos0xomega said:
So then why was it that aircraft posed such a threat to the BB?

Hey, you get no argument from me there. But now that deck area of the Iowa can be fitted with quite a few air defence systems that BBs never had in WW2. Iirc, even in the 1980's it had four CIWS systems and most warships today are glad to have even one of those. I think that now there would be even more defensive layers to protect the ship with than before. As a naval power projection unit, they would be very useful to supplement the big carriers. You could use the railguns on these to soften up defences before risking aircraft and their aircrews. What a combination, too. Death From Above (from the edge of space no less) but fired from the decks of battleships. Woot & Woo-hoo! 8)
 
I read somewhere the battleships would actaully have a reduced capability now, from the 1980's reactivation. The Tomahawk missiles that are designed to be fired from a box launcher are no longer manufactured, they are all designed for a VLS. Retrofitting a VLS into a BB would take quite a bit of doing considering the aforementioned heavy construction. Now, if the Rail Guns do come around, that probably wont matter, but would it take the place of a 16"/50 cal weapon? I mean physically - those ships are designed to operate with a certain amount of weight...who knows what would need to be done.

Chern
 
chaos0xomega said:
Wasnt that guy assassinated by Massada(sp?)

I suspect Mossad is the spelling your looking for, Massada was a fortress where some Jewish fanatics committed suicide rather than loose to the Romans...


Nick
 
Chernobyl said:
I read somewhere the battleships would actaully have a reduced capability now, from the 1980's reactivation. The Tomahawk missiles that are designed to be fired from a box launcher are no longer manufactured, they are all designed for a VLS. Retrofitting a VLS into a BB would take quite a bit of doing considering the aforementioned heavy construction. Now, if the Rail Guns do come around, that probably wont matter, but would it take the place of a 16"/50 cal weapon? I mean physically - those ships are designed to operate with a certain amount of weight...who knows what would need to be done.

Chern

In WW2 those guns could fire over the horizon to a range of about 23 miles. When used off of Vietnam, those tricky ordinance folks used an 8" sub-munution iirc rocket-assisted that went to around 80 miles. This then allowed them to bring over three quarters of the countryside under the range of those guns. I'd hate to see those beautiful guns beached, but I don't see them being used in the current world. At least the ships themselves might be reconfigured as a railgun platform. Then again, maybe for heritage leave them be and build some new huls while you're at it, eh? Maybe a tri-hull design that flies over the seas for fast deployments armed with railguns. I'm frothing like seafoam, lol.
 
captainsmirk said:
chaos0xomega said:
Wasnt that guy assassinated by Massada(sp?)

I suspect Mossad is the spelling your looking for, Massada was a fortress where some Jewish fanatics committed suicide rather than loose to the Romans...


Nick

Bingo, as I missed that :oops: .
 
Took me a while to figure out he was talking about the Mossad instead too! LOL!! I was like, Massada? Wasn't that a fortress? Did they drop it on him or what?
 
Ok, my atrocious spelling of jewish/hebrew names aside, I like the idea of Iowa-class rail platforms.

I don't think weight would be a serious issue. All the heavy fuel/gas and large motors could be replaced with a handful of nuclear reactors capable of A-powering any and all railguns mounted on board, B-possibly increasing speed, C- providing additional energy for other weapon systems and onboard electronics.

The only issue I see with weight is a decrease in it. From what I know about seagoing vessels, being underweight can be almost as dangerous as being overweight.

If they ever did something like that, I know I would join the navy in a heartbeat though. Just stick 4-8 railguns on it, load it up with aa guns/aa weaponry, give it more advanced computers and whatnot, and stick some missiles on it for good measure. Deploy 1 in the Atlantic and 3 in the Pacific, give it a suitably sized escort of destroyers and cruisers, possibly of a new design that specializes in A-anti air defence, and B- ASW, and give it a carrier or two for good measure . Then you're all good to go.

I can also invision railguns becoming a common armament onboard aircraft carriers. Without the threat of explosions, the reduced weight and space requirements, etc. An aircraft carrier could become an ideal platform for a couple of railguns.

As for Buships idea of tri-hulls, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the navy had plans for a tri-hull as a possible railgun platform.
 
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