Suggestion for 202x Updates

[Megamanic]

One little niggle that I've been dealing with for a while, well, since 2022 is that I bought High Guard in 2018 when I got back into Traveller (after a 35yr hiatus).

My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that HG 2022 isn't a fundamental rewrite of the edition I have, it's just that some of the content was moved to the 2022 rulebook (which I own) so there's not enough value for me to drop full price to upgrade but I'd still like a nice consistent set with no overlaps and gaps.

I'm not asking for a free upgrade to 2022 and I'm grateful for the free Traveller Companion Upgrade I got on DTRPG (presumably because I bought it much closer to the replacement date) but I'd like some acknowledgement of the prior purchase.

Would it be possible for you to create bundles for each upgraded book on DTRPG that includes both the Original and the 202x version of the book at a reduction in the price? That way, if you own original High Guard on DTRPG but not High Guard 2022 the bundle price would deduct the full price of the Original, leaving a discounted price for the 2022 edition. You can use the description to explain what the intended purpose of the bundle is to discourage owners of 2022 from buying the superseded version this way.

Am I missing anything?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hi there,

Understandable points. Here's our thinking process.

Whenever we look at doing an Update book, we always take this into consideration and if we are simply tweaking a few things and upgrading all the artwork and layout, nine times out of ten we will supply the PDFs for free to all prior purchasers. The recent Great Rift set is an example of this.

The only time we do not do this is when we completely revise the book, effectively re-editing and rebalancing every word, and adding new material. When we do this, it is more or less a brand new book, and is certainly treated that way when it is being put together. The Core Rulebook Update 2022 is an example of that... as is High Guard, I am afraid.

Simply put, the books that are not updated for free are those that have required significant work and resources to put together.

However, the flip side of this is that we also ensure that the previous book you already have remains compatible with the game and its future releases. In short, your High Guard still works and the Update book is not a necessary component for Traveller. We have not outmoded your own High Guard.

Hope that explains things!

 

[Sigtrygg]

Stop using the word "update". The update books are new editions, not updates. They have new rules and you say it yourself "When we do this, it is more or less a brand new book, and is certainly treated that way when it is being put together"
MgT1e
MgT2e
MgT2.5e

HG1e
HG2e
HG2.5e

 

[Megamanic]

Hi there,

Understandable points. Here's our thinking process.

Whenever we look at doing an Update book, we always take this into consideration and if we are simply tweaking a few things and upgrading all the artwork and layout, nine times out of ten we will supply the PDFs for free to all prior purchasers. The recent Great Rift set is an example of this.

The only time we do not do this is when we completely revise the book, effectively re-editing and rebalancing every word, and adding new material. When we do this, it is more or less a brand new book, and is certainly treated that way when it is being put together. The Core Rulebook Update 2022 is an example of that... as is High Guard, I am afraid.

Simply put, the books that are not updated for free are those that have required significant work and resources to put together.

However, the flip side of this is that we also ensure that the previous book you already have remains compatible with the game and its future releases. In short, your High Guard still works and the Update book is not a necessary component for Traveller. We have not outmoded your own High Guard.

Hope that explains things!

Sort of, I understand the theory of "significant update - not free, less significant - free", but now I'm more confused. Is HG2022 a ground-up rewrite of HG or is it an unnecessary purchase for someone who already has HG? You've sort of said both.

I thought HG2022 was a rearranged version of HG that took into account the addition of limited ship design rules in the 2022 Core book (which I own).

Does HG2022 have new components not found in HG? Are some components bigger/smaller, more/less expensive? Is a ship built in HG going to be the same as the HG2022 version picking the same options?

I wasn't pitching for a free copy of HG2022. What I was suggesting was a middle ground where you still get paid for your work and I don't have to pay full retail (twice) for something you're saying I don't necessarily need.

 

[Megamanic]

Stop using the word "update". The update books are new editions, not updates. They have new rules and you say it yourself "When we do this, it is more or less a brand new book, and is certainly treated that way when it is being put together"
MgT1e
MgT2e
MgT2.5e

HG1e
HG2e
HG2.5e

Love your sig block - I've been wanting that since 1978 so I'm not going to criticise Mongoose for them not managing it yet.

Can you give me a no copyright-viol run down of what rules were changed between the 2nd Edition High Guard & the 2022 Edition? How significant are we talking about?

 

[Arkathan]

Armor calculations were changed and scale based on ship size, military hulls allow more of it, several weapon systems added. Damage for large weapon systems redone, stations changed. They added a system for grading stations on a starport scale, changes to modifications and refits. New and altered components. Pretty sure a couple of TLs changed but I can't put my finger on it now.
There were more changes, but it's been two plus years since I compared them and I'm still finding differences I missed.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Sort of, I understand the theory of "significant update - not free, less significant - free", but now I'm more confused. Is HG2022 a ground-up rewrite of HG or is it an unnecessary purchase for someone who already has HG? You've sort of said both.

They are not mutually exclusive.

The Update uses the same core systems, which is why the previous book is still useable. However, we did still treat it as a brand new title in terms of editing and rules development - we simply put limits on how much could be changed from the original baseline, as it were.

This, incidentally, is why we call the books updates rather than new editions. Both this High Guard and the previous one are using the same core rules and is not an advancement on those.

Think of the update books as a polish rather than new editions. It is just that some update books have a deeper clean than others.

 

[Condottiere]

Mongoose Traveller 2.1.

Coincidentally, expectations would be lower.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Mongoose Traveller 2.1.

But here is the thing... it isn't. Specifically, it isn't.

We are not upgrading the whole core system, just individual elements of it. We could do that for individual titles (such as High Guard) but, functionally, that would be no different than using years to denote them... and years would be easier/more intuitive to track?

Now, this does sidestep the elephant in the room, whereby over the years we get the Ship of Theseus problem with the rules - after how many updates do we have a new edition by default.

I honestly do not have an answer at the moment, but I think we will all know it when we see it. However, the benefit as things stand is that we can continue improving the rules without invalidating everything that has gone before, as might well be very likely if we declared an official new edition.

This is, by its nature, an ongoing process and not one we are absolutely wedded to for all time. All comments will be taken into consideration!

 

[Condottiere]

I think it's less Ship of Theseus, and more Hindenburg ballooning.