Stupid Question Improved 2-Weapon Fighting

[BigSteveUK]

Hi Gents,

Just started reading through the rules and came across the improved 2-weapon fighting feat. The example seemed to give out 2 many attacks with no minus. Could someone explain how this feat works if you have multiple attacks and what minus to the attacks you would incur?

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Turim]

There is no minus to attacks in Conan (unlike in D&D), as long as you have Two-Weapon Combat Proficiency and you're wielding a light weapon. If you have Improved Two-Weapon Combat and you take a full attack action, you get as many attacks with your off-hand as your primary hand, and at the same attack bonus. Without ITWC, you only get 1 attack with your off-hand, regardless of your BAB.

 

[Foxworthy]

One Question to add.

Borderes can get Improved Two Weapon COmbat at 5th level so would they get one attack with thier main hand and two with the off hand? For Example based on base attack bonus it be +5 Main hand then +5/+0 off hand? Or do you have to have a +6 base attack bonus to get the second off hand attack?

 

[urdinaran]

No. Check the example of a 20th level Soldier. The way its worded, you gain a matching off-hand attack for every additional main attack. Very useful for higher level characters.

Prerequisite is +6 BAB, so your example won't work. A 6th level Borderer will have a BAB of +6/+1, thus using this feat he will have 2 off-hand attacks at +6/+1 also.

Why Borderers get that Feat at 5th level, I dunno, since they would only get 1 off-hand attack anyway.

 

[Sutek]

Well, let's break it down.

A) Two-weapon combat proficiency Requires that the recipient have proficiency with at least Simple Weapons and a BAB+1.

B) Improved Two-weapon Combat is a general feat requiring that the recipient have a BAB of +6 (6th lvl lfor a Boarderer), proficiency with Simple Weapons and 2WC capability.

C) At 2nd lvl, a Borderer can gain a Combat Style that allows him to gain the effects of 2WC (A) for free, making it unnecessary to take the feat. Therefore, a Borderer is eligible for I2WC as soon as his BAB is high enough.

D) 2WC only causes a penalty (-4) if the secondary, off-hand weapon is a one-handed weapon (Battleaxe thru Warhammer, for example). If the secondary, off-hand weapon is light (axe thru short sword, for instance) there is no attack penalty at all.

E) The only way to incur more than -4 as a penalty is to also not be proficient with a weapon gropup, and even Scholars are proficient with Simple Weapons. If a character does not have proficiency and he is equipped with two one-handed weapons, he'd have a -6/-6 if he also had the 2WC feat

F) A 6th lvl Borderer has a +6/+1 BAB, so gets two atacks normally per round. With an additional weapon, it will provide him with an additional attack as well. There is no off-hand penalty so with the 2WC feat, a 6th lvl Bordere can attack with BAB +6/+6/+1 per round.

G) With I2WC, a second off-hand attack can be made at -5, so that same Borderer would get attacks at BAB +6/+6/+1/-4. A character gains one additional attack also for every 5 ponts of BAB above +6, so at 11th level, that Borderer would have BAB +11/+11/+6/+1*/+1/-8**, where the strike maked (*) is the first additional off-hand attack and the -8 is a second bonus attack due to having a BAB+11 (5 points above +6).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Trodax]

Just started reading through the rules and came across the improved 2-weapon fighting feat. The example seemed to give out 2 many attacks with no minus. Could someone explain how this feat works if you have multiple attacks and what minus to the attacks you would incur?

The description of Improved Two-Weapon Combat is a bit confusing. All it means, though, is that, just like Turim said, you get to use the iterative attacks you get from a high BAB with your off-hand weapon.

So, for example, a character with BAB +12, Two-Weapon Combat, and a light weapon in the off-hand (so, no penalty) would get the following attacks:

Without Improved Two-Weapon Combat: +12/+7/+2 with primary hand, +12 with off-hand.

With Improved Two-Weapon Combat: +12/+7/+2 with primary hand, +12/+7/+2 with off-hand.

Oh, and yeah; fighting with two weapons is a lot easier in Conan than in D&D. :wink:

 

[urdinaran]

I think the one thing that is confusing about the Borderer example is that they get the Feat at 5th level, irregardless of meeting the prerequisite. Therefore, at 5th level they have a BAB of +5, and their off-hand attack would be at +5.
The Feat states that they get an additional attack, but the way it is worded, it seems to imply that these additional off-hand attacks match any additional Base Attacks they gain as they level; when they gain 6th level, they are now +6/+1, and with the Feat, have off-hand attacks of +6/+1.
So why give them the Feat at 5th level if it is of no benefit to them at that level?

 

[Trodax]

C) At 2nd lvl, a Borderer can gain a Combat Style that allows him to gain the effects of 2WC (A) for free, making it unnecessary to take the feat. Therefore, a Borderer is eligible for I2WC as soon as his BAB is high enough.

No.
Borderers gain Two-Weapon Combat for free at 1st level (as do all classes except Noble, Scholar and Thief).
At 2nd level he gains the benefits of Two-Weapon Defence, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites of the feat.
At 5th level he gains the benefits of Improved Two-Weapon Combat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites of the feat.

F) A 6th lvl Borderer has a +6/+1 BAB, so gets two atacks normally per round. With an additional weapon, it will provide him with an additional attack as well. There is no off-hand penalty so with the 2WC feat, a 6th lvl Bordere can attack with BAB +6/+6/+1 per round.

Correct, but just to clarify: a character with BAB +6, a light off-hand weapon and 2WC (but not I2WC) would get +6/+1 with his main hand and +6 with his off-hand.

G) With I2WC, a second off-hand attack can be made at -5, so that same Borderer would get attacks at BAB +6/+6/+1/-4. A character gains one additional attack also for every 5 ponts of BAB above +6, so at 11th level, that Borderer would have BAB +11/+11/+6/+1*/+1/-8**, where the strike maked (*) is the first additional off-hand attack and the -8 is a second bonus attack due to having a BAB+11 (5 points above +6).

No.
A 6th level Borderer with I2WC and a light off-hand weapon would get main hand +6/+1, off-hand +6/+1.
An 11th level Borderer with I2WC and a light off-hand weapon would get main hand +11/+6/+1, off-hand +11/+6/+1.

 

[Trodax]

I think the one thing that is confusing about the Borderer example is that they get the Feat at 5th level, irregardless of meeting the prerequisite. Therefore, at 5th level they have a BAB of +5, and their off-hand attack would be at +5.
The Feat states that they get an additional attack, but the way it is worded, it seems to imply that these additional off-hand attacks match any additional Base Attacks they gain as they level; when they gain 6th level, they are now +6/+1, and with the Feat, have off-hand attacks of +6/+1.
So why give them the Feat at 5th level if it is of no benefit to them at that level?

Yeah; its pretty strange. My guess is that its probably a mistake.
Regardless of how you rule it, a 6th level Borderer will have +6/+1 main hand, +6/+1 off-hand. Only thing thats unclear is what happens at 5th level. Does he get:
A) +5 main hand, +5 off-hand
or
B) +5 main hand, +5/+0 off-hand

From a strict reading of the rules, I would actually say that option B above is correct; the description of I2WC just says that you gain an extra off-hand attack at a -5 penalty, and it mentions BAB only in regards to what happens at higher levels (BAB +11, and beyond). It seems a bit odd that you would get more attacks with your off-hand than your main hand weapon, though, and because of that, option A might be more logical.

Since one of my players will most likely level up and become a 5th level Borderer during tomorrows game, I should really make up my mind on this one. :? You folks have any more input?

 

[Turim]

From a literal reading a 5th-level borderer should indeed get +5/+0 with his off-hand. I doubt it is unbalancing, but it is certainly annoying. It seems to be an unintentional byproduct of Conan giving the borderer the Improved Combat Style at 5th level, instead of 6th, where the D&D ranger gets it. I'm guessing this was done because at 6th level the borderer gets the last feat from the Track-Endurance-Diehard "chain". Since this "chain" is shared by barbarians and nomads Ian Sturrock probably didn't want to move Diehard to 5th level for the borderer and moved ICS instead. Mongoose can easily fix this by cleaning up the wording of the Improved Two-Weapon Combat feat.

 

[Foxworthy]

I think the one thing that is confusing about the Borderer example is that they get the Feat at 5th level, irregardless of meeting the prerequisite. Therefore, at 5th level they have a BAB of +5, and their off-hand attack would be at +5.
The Feat states that they get an additional attack, but the way it is worded, it seems to imply that these additional off-hand attacks match any additional Base Attacks they gain as they level; when they gain 6th level, they are now +6/+1, and with the Feat, have off-hand attacks of +6/+1.
So why give them the Feat at 5th level if it is of no benefit to them at that level?

Yeah; its pretty strange. My guess is that its probably a mistake.
Regardless of how you rule it, a 6th level Borderer will have +6/+1 main hand, +6/+1 off-hand. Only thing thats unclear is what happens at 5th level. Does he get:
A) +5 main hand, +5 off-hand
or
B) +5 main hand, +5/+0 off-hand

From a strict reading of the rules, I would actually say that option B above is correct; the description of I2WC just says that you gain an extra off-hand attack at a -5 penalty, and it mentions BAB only in regards to what happens at higher levels (BAB +11, and beyond). It seems a bit odd that you would get more attacks with your off-hand than your main hand weapon, though, and because of that, option A might be more logical.

Since one of my players will most likely level up and become a 5th level Borderer during tomorrows game, I should really make up my mind on this one. :? You folks have any more input?

I'm leaning towards B since that's why I asked the question. Just seems a bit weird to get more off hand attacks then main hand.

 

[Sutek]

Don't even think of it as "off hand". That'll help for a start.

I dont'think each weapon gets two attacks if the BAB is +6/+1, folks. I can't see that anywhere. I can see that the additional weapon provides an additional "off-hand" attack, but it wouldn't be +6/+1 right, +6/+1 left. You just gain an additilnal attack at your highest BAB, so +6/+6/+1. That's with no feats, not a Borderer.

I was wrong about one thing. The Borderer gets I2WC at 5th, and the class ability thereby ignores the BAB +6 prerequisite. Therefor a 5th level Borderer would get two attacks, one with each weapon, at BAB+5/+5. That is, as long as one weapon was a light, one-handed weapon.

 

[Trodax]

I dont'think each weapon gets two attacks if the BAB is +6/+1, folks. I can't see that anywhere.

Well, as long as you have I2WC, thats what happens.

An example to show you why: Bob is armed with a broadsword and has a BAB of +6/+1. On a full-attack action he therefore gets two attacks, so broadsword +6/+1.

If Bob now picks up a second weapon he gets an additional attack. As long as he has 2WC (as most classes have for free) and this weapon is light (say, a dagger), he takes no penalty on this attack, or the attacks with his broadsword. Bob's full-attack has now become broadsword +6/+1, dagger +6.

If we now give Bob I2WC (which he can take because he has BAB +6), he gets an additional attack with his off-hand weapon (at a -5 penalty). Bob's full-attack is now broadsword +6/+1, dagger +6/+1.

The Borderer gets I2WC at 5th, and the class ability thereby ignores the BAB +6 prerequisite. Therefor a 5th level Borderer would get two attacks, one with each weapon, at BAB+5/+5. That is, as long as one weapon was a light, one-handed weapon.

But that Borderer would get two attacks (+5 and +5) regardless of whether he got I2WC or not. :? With I2WC, he should get an additional off-hand attack (at a -5 penalty). That would put him at +5 main hand, +5/+0 off-hand. Thats a bit weird though, and might be wrong, since you normally don't receive attacks at BAB +0.

 

[Philip_fry]

But that Borderer would get two attacks (+5 and +5) regardless of whether he got I2WC or not. :? With I2WC, he should get an additional off-hand attack (at a -5 penalty). That would put him at +5 main hand, +5/+0 off-hand. Thats a bit weird though, and might be wrong, since you normally don't receive attacks at BAB +0.

That´s how we handled it in our campaign. It´s covered by the rules. It may be a bit strange but it didn´t seem to unbalance the game at all. The extra attack wasn´t that harming to the enemies. And since the fifth level already is a little unprofitable (except for the favoured class rules) for many classes it would be rather unfair to grant the borderer something he won´t be able to use for the next 5.000 xps.

Greetings Marcel

 

[BigSteveUK]

Perhaps I am not such a fool, glad to see a few people are having probs and thanks very much for the reply.

I am more than happy now and understand the number of attacks as I read it again. e.g.

2-Weapon fighting one additional attack so 1/1
Improved 2 weapon fighting gives another at +6 and each additional 5 points after that so.

Off Hand Attacks
1 for 2 Weapon Fighting
1 Improved 2-Weapon at +6 (except borderer who get it at +5)
1 Improved 2-Weapon at +11
1 Improved 2-Weapon at +16.

But should the minus to attacks even with a light off hand weapon be
1 no minus
2 minus -5
3 minus -10
4 minus –15

So if you have a main hand of +6/+1, would the off-hand attacks be +6 (Normal 2 weapon attack) /–4 (additional Improved 2 weapon fighting attack which incurs a –5 penalty)???

 

[Foxworthy]

So if you have a main hand of +6/+1, would the off-hand attacks be +6 (Normal 2 weapon attack) /–4 (additional Improved 2 weapon fighting attack which incurs a –5 penalty)???

No, it's based off the main attack. Basically if your not counting the Borderer at fifth level thing it works like this. Every time your main hand gets a bonus attack due to BAB bonus (like when you reach +6) your off hand gets the same bonus attack.

So if your base attack bonus is +6 without Improved 2 Weapon Fighting you'd have +6/+1 with the main hand and +6 with the off hand.

With it you off hand aatcks increase like the main hand attacks so you'd have +6/+1 main hand and +6/+1 off hand.

So at +11 with Improved 2 Weapon you'd have +11/+6/+1 with each hand and so on.

The -5 penalty listed in the rules is based off the base attack bonus, not the bonus from iterative (sp?) attacks.

 

[Sutek]

I dont'think each weapon gets two attacks if the BAB is +6/+1, folks. I can't see that anywhere.

Well, as long as you have I2WC, thats what happens.

Yeah, I see that now. I just wrote it differently up there (+6/+6/+1/+1).

The Borderer gets I2WC at 5th, and the class ability thereby ignores the BAB +6 prerequisite. Therefor a 5th level Borderer would get two attacks, one with each weapon, at BAB+5/+5. That is, as long as one weapon was a light, one-handed weapon.

But that Borderer would get two attacks (+5 and +5) regardless of whether he got I2WC or not. :? With I2WC, he should get an additional off-hand attack (at a -5 penalty). That would put him at +5 main hand, +5/+0 off-hand. Thats a bit weird though, and might be wrong, since you normally don't receive attacks at BAB +0.

[/quote]

What do you mean? A Pirate at 1st level has a BAB +0. You don't normally see it due to penalties, but it's totally possible and perfectly reasonable. Borderers just get all the benefit of I2WC a level early, and by virtue of that, one point of BAB early too. Otherwise it wouldn't really be so much an extraordinary ability, would it?

It get's even more complicated tracking the number of attacks when the BAB gets above 10+ because of the "5 points above" bit that kicks in. Suffice to say, for those of you who are used to D&D as a model of melee combat, be porepared for lots and lots more attacks in Conan.

:shock:

 

[Trodax]

What do you mean? A Pirate at 1st level has a BAB +0. You don't normally see it due to penalties, but it's totally possible and perfectly reasonable.

Yeah, you're totally right on that.

 

[BigSteveUK]

Superb got it.

Thanks for all your replies.

Steve