Burger said:
'I can take him, I can take him. . .'
Burger said:
Against this, the Minbari have the best fighters protecting them, and superb anti-fighter defences. . .
Stealth as a 'Second Armour'
- Thread starter CodeofArms
- Start date
'I can take him, I can take him. . .'
Against this, the Minbari have the best fighters protecting them, and superb anti-fighter defences. . .
On a one-for-one basis, yes. But Minbari have far fewer fighters than most other races. One wing of Starfuries, Thunderbolts, Sentri, Razik, Thorun, Tzymm, Star Snake, Delta-V, even Kotha can quite easily take out 1 wing of Nials. They only have the best fighters if they take a Morshin, thats 40% of a 5-point Raid fleet dedicated to anti-fighter defence. Then along comes a Dag'Kar and its game over.msprange said:
Anti-fighter defences are useless because they fire after the fighters.
Simultaneous fire for antifighter/minibeam weapons and fighters is a nice fix - it means fighters get to fire at full effect, but the ship under attack gets a reasonable rate of attrition before factoring in any damage.
As for it being out of canon - as Matt points out, stealth doesn't matter at fighter ranges. That 1.5 kilometre high ship isn't exactly invisible to the fighter pilot. I think what's missing from the scenario is that Sinclair's wing was all shredded before they even got to fire a shot at the cruiser.
As for it being out of canon - as Matt points out, stealth doesn't matter at fighter ranges. That 1.5 kilometre high ship isn't exactly invisible to the fighter pilot. I think what's missing from the scenario is that Sinclair's wing was all shredded before they even got to fire a shot at the cruiser.
Burger said:
If you want the paint on your ship completely untouched, true. However, the Minbari are capable of wiping out large numbers of fighters before they take serious damage. . .
It's true - I did wipe out a large number of Raziks out at 18 inches on sunday, simply by virtue of the number of TL dice I could put out at that range overwhelming the dodges on the fighters.
I don't think there are many fighters in the game which can move from outside of fusion cannon range, and into firing range in one turn? (without the benefit of afterburners I suppose). So just allocate your substantial minibeam dice, and you'll pop them off reasonably well.
Still, I think simultaneous fire is the way forward (although this strays from the point of the thread which is stealth).
I don't think there are many fighters in the game which can move from outside of fusion cannon range, and into firing range in one turn? (without the benefit of afterburners I suppose). So just allocate your substantial minibeam dice, and you'll pop them off reasonably well.
Still, I think simultaneous fire is the way forward (although this strays from the point of the thread which is stealth).
Alex, mini-beams are only anti-fighter within 4". To kill fighters outside that, you have to rely on them failing dodge rolls, which is not very ikely. You'll kill 1 fighter, maybe 2 if you're lucky.
Crit-hunting fighters are a major problem. But even without crits, fighters can do some nasty damage. Twice I've had a Battle level ship destroyed by fighters in 2 turns, without any "lucky crits" (which I've already shown in another thread, are not all that "lucky" as many people think). Some ships have high hull values to defend against fighters firing first... some have dodge... some have interceptors... some have e-mines... some have hordes of their own fighters... some have charged energy pulse. Minbari have nothing.msprange said:
I know they are - my point was that I had lots of spare AD in side and rear arcs that can shoot out to 18 inches. No other race in the game has that.
The sheer volume of dice you can put out at mid range is enough to overwhelm even a 2+ dodge, IMO.
Swarms are annoying, it's true, but then most of your ships will have overlapping arcs of fusion cannons so that they can satturate space with green beams of death.
Granted, you don't want to waste what is essentially your main armament on fighters. But fighters are a real threat now, so really... you should (where you don't have Nials/Tishats to tie them up).
I do concur though, without stealth, with low hulls and no interceptors, the 1 round of minibeam shooting is frequently not enough (especially when you think about ships like the Morshin, with only 2AD of non-TL minibeams).
The sheer volume of dice you can put out at mid range is enough to overwhelm even a 2+ dodge, IMO.
Swarms are annoying, it's true, but then most of your ships will have overlapping arcs of fusion cannons so that they can satturate space with green beams of death.
Granted, you don't want to waste what is essentially your main armament on fighters. But fighters are a real threat now, so really... you should (where you don't have Nials/Tishats to tie them up).
I do concur though, without stealth, with low hulls and no interceptors, the 1 round of minibeam shooting is frequently not enough (especially when you think about ships like the Morshin, with only 2AD of non-TL minibeams).
Burger said:
To be fair that has absolutely nothing to do with the Stealth mechanic. The Vree suffer even more so from the same problem (wafer thin hulls), and they don't have a carrier vessel to bring in more fighters, except for the trading station and base star (that makes a really nice trading station model). What both the Minbari and Vree need is a better way to defend against the fighter swarm, as your best defense (more fighters) only becomes viable at Battle for the Minbari (Morshin), Nials or Tishats just don't cut it at 1 flight per Wing (what would you choose 3 or 4 Nials or 1 Esharan/Ashinta?). The Vree Z'Tack (War) doesn't even count as a competent carrier, though you can at least buy individual T'zymm flights in Wings of 3.
Back to Stealth, I don't think there was too much a significant impact with the Armagedon tweaks, except at short ranges - which the Tigara and Torotha require. Torotha's were already very fragile and difficult to get good use out of, and now it is so much harder. The Tigara also seems to be more of a suicide weapon these days (range + fighters + scout = 1+ Stealth roll).
Whilst the all-or-nothing mechanic can be annoying (I play against Minbari quite frequently) it is something you have to adjust your tactics for, and that means attacking multiple ships at once, rather then concentrating on one ship at time. Which is the opposite of how the Minbari operate as they will remove your ships one at a time. While a 'Saturation Fire' type special order could be a very useful (especially while I'm trying to shred a pesky Delphi), if added it should come with enough penalties to make it a difficult choice as to when to use it, rather then a defacto from every ship against Minbari.
Well, the Torotha could do with any one or more of the following: 90 degree turns (in line with how the fluff describes it), a dodge, or 18 inch Fusion Cannons to go with the rest of the fleet.
The Tigara? Stealth 5+ means none of that 1+ stealth rubbish.
It's a ship designed to get into 4 inch range... it really needs to have some form of stealth in there, considering how cheap other races' scouts and fighters are.
The range issue makes both the Torotha and Tigara throwaway JP bombers... considering what they have to face at their PLs, I dont think that's what they should be.
And yes, the idea of a satturation type SA is that they would get to ignore stealth, but would be much less likely to hit at their normal range (i.e. half their AD, with no traits, or given the weak trait and cannot cause crits etc.). Alternatively, give them their full AD in one arc, weak, but cannot fire any other weapons (as they've taken the targetting system offline to target manually).
There are all sorts of ideas you could apply...
The Tigara? Stealth 5+ means none of that 1+ stealth rubbish.
It's a ship designed to get into 4 inch range... it really needs to have some form of stealth in there, considering how cheap other races' scouts and fighters are.
The range issue makes both the Torotha and Tigara throwaway JP bombers... considering what they have to face at their PLs, I dont think that's what they should be.
And yes, the idea of a satturation type SA is that they would get to ignore stealth, but would be much less likely to hit at their normal range (i.e. half their AD, with no traits, or given the weak trait and cannot cause crits etc.). Alternatively, give them their full AD in one arc, weak, but cannot fire any other weapons (as they've taken the targetting system offline to target manually).
There are all sorts of ideas you could apply...
Alexb83 said:
Interesting, I'd probably go for a Dodge, Atmospheric and add some more troops. Or make a variant with a 1AD Neutron Laser instead of the Molecular Disruptors.
Alexb83 said:
To be fair, a Tigara's damage and hull is about the same as a Hyperion. It just lacks the Interceptors that allow a Hyperion has to more or less deal with any incoming fighter shots, and other non-beam weapons. Also, its weapon loadouts means it must operate outside the normal fleet formation (where ships can defend one another) in the same way as misplaced Vorcha*s in a Centauri Beam Team. Historically, the Stealth was good enough to allow it wade into an enemy fleet formation and operate there for a short time unsupported. Now its more suitable for nipping at the flanks while hoping enemy fighters are distracted elsewhere.
Although I have said I am interested in the proposed idea, I generally think that the new stealth rules actually work well.
I generally play Minbari fleets, and have found the new stelath rules to greatly blaance the fleet. It is still extreemly lethal but requires some finese to use. I have lost under the new rules (in the begiining) when I decided to power in and go for the quick kills--and thereby exposing by Tinashis. However, if you play to the minbarii strechths and stay at range and cut your opponent apart ship by ship, the minbari are lethal.
Playign agaisnt the Minbari the issue is to concentrate--try to take out Minbari ships a few at a time. Make sure you get multiple arcs to fire, but don't try and take all ships at once--usually the Minbari have a few heavy hitters that do most of thier damage--aim to take those out bu hook or by crook.
Regarding fighters--I have found the new rules excellent for balance--the minbari have soemthing to worry about--it makes one factor all those fighters when I decide do I CAF my beautiful Tinashi squadron--or do I hold back to make sure I cna drop that fighter screen.
I like that the Minbari now have a weakness--it makes themmplayable--whichj even I beleived they were to powerful before Armegeddon.
I recently lost my 5 point Battle fleet (3 Tinashis (squadron) and 4 Ashintas) to a Narn fleet (2 G'Quans and 6 of their Raid Bricks with 60 Damage points and 4 (or was it 5) fighters). I was able to fight off teh massed fighters--but at heavy cost--2 Ashintas and 1 Tinashi (the other 2 damaged, 1 heavily but not critically so). In the end, it came down to the flyign brinks gettign one close pass at the remaingin Tinashis and from volume of fire they were able to drop the only moderatly damaged one and skeleton and cripel (4 pts hull remaining) the other (lost flight computer and stelath). Earlier, the the G'quans had been able to take out 1 more Ashinta and leave teh other damaged by 20 and a -4 speed crit.
Over all it was an excellent game, I conceeded on realizing that I had 1 Ashinta that was limping, and Tinashi that I could only hopw to withdraw. I had destroyed all the Narn fighter swarm adn 2 G'Quans, 1 flying brick and was able to criple 1 more, but the other 4 were only slightly to modertly damaged.
All in all the Minbari are beatable--but it is ia question of maximizing your strengths--and feildign a fleet that doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.
The relative weakness of the Minbari to fighters is a good game element--it creates a weakness that the Minabir player must account for and the Minbari opponet exploit.
The Minbair are not weak agasint fighters, quite the contrary--but the question is how do you react to them--it is a balancing and alocation question--the type fo tactical question that makes the game fun--do I clear out this fighter swarm that is plinking me or do I dire at the those Havy brinks that are lining up for a devastating pass.
I don't want a fleet that has no weakenss, I want some elelment of streategy involved.
I generally play Minbari fleets, and have found the new stelath rules to greatly blaance the fleet. It is still extreemly lethal but requires some finese to use. I have lost under the new rules (in the begiining) when I decided to power in and go for the quick kills--and thereby exposing by Tinashis. However, if you play to the minbarii strechths and stay at range and cut your opponent apart ship by ship, the minbari are lethal.
Playign agaisnt the Minbari the issue is to concentrate--try to take out Minbari ships a few at a time. Make sure you get multiple arcs to fire, but don't try and take all ships at once--usually the Minbari have a few heavy hitters that do most of thier damage--aim to take those out bu hook or by crook.
Regarding fighters--I have found the new rules excellent for balance--the minbari have soemthing to worry about--it makes one factor all those fighters when I decide do I CAF my beautiful Tinashi squadron--or do I hold back to make sure I cna drop that fighter screen.
I like that the Minbari now have a weakness--it makes themmplayable--whichj even I beleived they were to powerful before Armegeddon.
I recently lost my 5 point Battle fleet (3 Tinashis (squadron) and 4 Ashintas) to a Narn fleet (2 G'Quans and 6 of their Raid Bricks with 60 Damage points and 4 (or was it 5) fighters). I was able to fight off teh massed fighters--but at heavy cost--2 Ashintas and 1 Tinashi (the other 2 damaged, 1 heavily but not critically so). In the end, it came down to the flyign brinks gettign one close pass at the remaingin Tinashis and from volume of fire they were able to drop the only moderatly damaged one and skeleton and cripel (4 pts hull remaining) the other (lost flight computer and stelath). Earlier, the the G'quans had been able to take out 1 more Ashinta and leave teh other damaged by 20 and a -4 speed crit.
Over all it was an excellent game, I conceeded on realizing that I had 1 Ashinta that was limping, and Tinashi that I could only hopw to withdraw. I had destroyed all the Narn fighter swarm adn 2 G'Quans, 1 flying brick and was able to criple 1 more, but the other 4 were only slightly to modertly damaged.
All in all the Minbari are beatable--but it is ia question of maximizing your strengths--and feildign a fleet that doesn't allow them to play to their strengths.
The relative weakness of the Minbari to fighters is a good game element--it creates a weakness that the Minabir player must account for and the Minbari opponet exploit.
The Minbair are not weak agasint fighters, quite the contrary--but the question is how do you react to them--it is a balancing and alocation question--the type fo tactical question that makes the game fun--do I clear out this fighter swarm that is plinking me or do I dire at the those Havy brinks that are lining up for a devastating pass.
I don't want a fleet that has no weakenss, I want some elelment of streategy involved.
The trick to attacking with fighters is only attack in arcs that have ships attcking in . The can't target everything.
Minbari shouldn't have have low hits and hull. Crits can mess big time with them through damage let alone the effects.
Changing the stealth mechanic would also mean change the ship stats in hull and hits which by the way im for.
Would also scrap anti fighter in a way. Just have a flak value on some ships. all fighters that come in a certain range eg 2" have roll the number of flak value dodges. Flak value 2 = 2 dodges. Just doesn't make sense that ships only have certain arcs for anti fighter.
Minbari shouldn't have have low hits and hull. Crits can mess big time with them through damage let alone the effects.
Changing the stealth mechanic would also mean change the ship stats in hull and hits which by the way im for.
Would also scrap anti fighter in a way. Just have a flak value on some ships. all fighters that come in a certain range eg 2" have roll the number of flak value dodges. Flak value 2 = 2 dodges. Just doesn't make sense that ships only have certain arcs for anti fighter.
CodeofArms
Mongoose
The alternative of course making the Poseidon the most useless and overpriced ship Ever. A crippled, weaponless Hermes is more deadly without the fire-first rule in its favour.
I think the rules have changed for the better; now fighters don't feel totally useless because they get to at least crack off a few good shots. Making fighters obey stealth rules just skews the fighter game in favour of the Minbari; and nothing can be more infuriating than 8 T-Bolt or SFury flights failing to spot a Tinashi at extreme point blank; (by which I mean they are so close it is possible for the pilot to comically eject into the hull of said vessel). Further more to say that 'its non-canon' seems a bit weak to me. Go watch the B5 films (which we all must have seen by now!) and tell me weather the Sharlin Sinclair is going to be rammed can be seen out of the cockpit window; or the Nial (?) that Ivanova's brother spots...
For a Final rant, whoever it is that does not bother to cope with a fighter heavy fleet (you know who you are) when they face one deserves to be punished; you don'y exactly field a patrol level only hull-4 fleet against SAP, DD fleets now now do you? In personal experience i've never finished a game (won, loss or draw) with more than 1/3 of my original fighter flights remaining on the table; At 1hp, a good chance of dodge failure and generally a very popular "oh not much left in my arcs" to shoot at target; failing to cope with fighters is somewhat...embarassing.
Regarding minbari, with the change of at least when i lose to Minbari now it doesn't feel cheap; if a blockade of suicidal Star-furies and T-Bolts (and on several occasions Thorum Fighters!) least get to fire and damage one of the ships i know deep down Earth is at least protected by another 10 minutes of repair time.......
