ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
SMG's are bullet-spitters... 'autofire'. So yeah they count as military light assault.
Starting equipment for TL9-12
- Thread starter mavikfelna
- Start date
I agree, but the law level classifications never have. Submachine guns have always been one law level more available than "military weapons". Mongoose are just continuing 1977 onwards here; the classic text for law level 3 prohibitions is explicit:
"Weapons of a strict military nature (such as machine guns or automatic rifles, though not submachine guns) are prohibited."
Law level 4:
"Light assault weapons (such as submachine guns) are prohibited."
The same or similar text is carried throughout the various Traveller editions.
By all means redefine them in YTU or on a particular world. I guess SMGs were seen as appropriate to police forces and other paramilitary ones.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah, that logic is ridiculous, especially when you consider that under older rules Rifles and SMGs did the same amount of damage, 3D
If you're weapon can fire bursts, it's illegal at LL 3.
Weapon restrictions don't always make sense in the real world using gamer logic. Shotguns are generally more allowable than rifles and pistols not because they do less damage, but because they have more general utility for hunting small game. Some countries put a limit on the ammunition so that you cannot use slugs for example, but buckshot will still kill quite effectively. Pistols are often heavily restricted for their concealability, the US has wildly varying rules about concealed carry and open carry from neighbouring states. Bolt action hunting rifles might be perfectly legal by default (e.g. Germany) but any sort of semi-automatic loading might be illegal (e.g. UK). There are often exemptions that might make sense locally but no sense to an outsider.
In the UK our gun laws have evolved over the last century or so often in response to isolated incidents for political and public opinion reasons completely unconnected with any credible effectiveness of the legislation. Shotgun ownership is still reasonably common as it is a required tool for farmers. Not all shotguns are legally classed as shotguns though e.g. semi-automatic guns capable of holding more than 3 shots, short barrelled guns etc. You can own certain types of pistol if you are a member of a gun club, others are banned outright. You cannot own a self-loading rifle unless it is a "smallbore" (.22 rimfire for example). Using a "full bore" rifle of any kind requires a special license unless you only intend to fire blanks (in the UK the license also covers the purchase of a certain quantity of ammunition), so owning the weapon itself might not require such a restrictive FAC. You can own antique weapons designed for "obsolete ammunition" with no restriction even if you actually own some ammunition, except that some have been specifically restricted because they have been commonly converted to modern ammunition. You can own a smooth-bore muzzle-loader of up to 2" bore on a shotgun license (which is easier to obtain than a firearms certificate - FAC). Whilst you cannot buy ready made slug shells for a regular shotgun without a FAC, there is no such restriction on owning loose ball, powder etc. Some forces have asserted that loading a muzzleloader with loose powder and balls turn it into a firearm requiring a FAC, but the law does not appear to support this assertion, but good luck arguing that at the point of arrest. Recently certain brands of smokeless powder were reclassified as requiring a special license to own, but the orginal formulation does not.
We have laws covering specific prohibited melee weapons and these are almost exclusively a result of some highly publicised incident by idiots. Whilst the intent is clearer, sometimes the implementation is almost random. Under a strict interpretation of the law I can own a sharp full-sized rapier, but not certain types of cheese knife. Most of these are mitigated by the "reasonable" defence. I cannot carry any knife larger than a non-locking penknife "just because". I can carry even a large knife or sword if I have a good reason. The reasonableness will be tested in court so again it won't necessarily stop you being arrested (though if you can convince the police officer that you have good reason it may not get that far). A muster out weapon might come with a built in good reason "this was a personal gift from the sector baron - I am required to wear it as part of my uniform"
It should also be remembered that not all officers of the law actually know the law or they may be operating on "local" interpretations or might be bringing other baggage to their judgements. A pragmatic officer that is about to go off shift might be keen to avoid the paperwork, but an overly zealous officer, in the midst of a messy divorce and who also really doesn't like off-worlders, especially the mouthy type he is currently dealing with, might be looking for a scalp.
Real legal complications are not neat distinctions and LL is pretty clear cut because it is a game. Personally I like the randomness to keep players on their toes. Visitors to a new world should always be wary about tripping over some local regulation that they either did not understand or even know about. It is the referee to make that interesting rather than irritating. When you get hassled outside the starport, the actual LL might be less important than the characters attitude, which ensures the player has agency and the disposition of the authority you are dealing with, which ensures the referee retains fine control. If for plot reasons you want to take that high tech laser weapon out of the game temporarily then a slavish adherence to Law Level should not prevent you. As long as the player isn't permanently denied their cherished "Best Gun", you are not required to allow players to dictate the terms of the adventure.
The story is in that specific interaction with the law enforcement officer, not in the technical difference between a self-loading pistol and a repeating pistol. That will come out in the court case and that probably isn't the adventure you or they want to be having.
In the UK our gun laws have evolved over the last century or so often in response to isolated incidents for political and public opinion reasons completely unconnected with any credible effectiveness of the legislation. Shotgun ownership is still reasonably common as it is a required tool for farmers. Not all shotguns are legally classed as shotguns though e.g. semi-automatic guns capable of holding more than 3 shots, short barrelled guns etc. You can own certain types of pistol if you are a member of a gun club, others are banned outright. You cannot own a self-loading rifle unless it is a "smallbore" (.22 rimfire for example). Using a "full bore" rifle of any kind requires a special license unless you only intend to fire blanks (in the UK the license also covers the purchase of a certain quantity of ammunition), so owning the weapon itself might not require such a restrictive FAC. You can own antique weapons designed for "obsolete ammunition" with no restriction even if you actually own some ammunition, except that some have been specifically restricted because they have been commonly converted to modern ammunition. You can own a smooth-bore muzzle-loader of up to 2" bore on a shotgun license (which is easier to obtain than a firearms certificate - FAC). Whilst you cannot buy ready made slug shells for a regular shotgun without a FAC, there is no such restriction on owning loose ball, powder etc. Some forces have asserted that loading a muzzleloader with loose powder and balls turn it into a firearm requiring a FAC, but the law does not appear to support this assertion, but good luck arguing that at the point of arrest. Recently certain brands of smokeless powder were reclassified as requiring a special license to own, but the orginal formulation does not.
We have laws covering specific prohibited melee weapons and these are almost exclusively a result of some highly publicised incident by idiots. Whilst the intent is clearer, sometimes the implementation is almost random. Under a strict interpretation of the law I can own a sharp full-sized rapier, but not certain types of cheese knife. Most of these are mitigated by the "reasonable" defence. I cannot carry any knife larger than a non-locking penknife "just because". I can carry even a large knife or sword if I have a good reason. The reasonableness will be tested in court so again it won't necessarily stop you being arrested (though if you can convince the police officer that you have good reason it may not get that far). A muster out weapon might come with a built in good reason "this was a personal gift from the sector baron - I am required to wear it as part of my uniform"
It should also be remembered that not all officers of the law actually know the law or they may be operating on "local" interpretations or might be bringing other baggage to their judgements. A pragmatic officer that is about to go off shift might be keen to avoid the paperwork, but an overly zealous officer, in the midst of a messy divorce and who also really doesn't like off-worlders, especially the mouthy type he is currently dealing with, might be looking for a scalp.
Real legal complications are not neat distinctions and LL is pretty clear cut because it is a game. Personally I like the randomness to keep players on their toes. Visitors to a new world should always be wary about tripping over some local regulation that they either did not understand or even know about. It is the referee to make that interesting rather than irritating. When you get hassled outside the starport, the actual LL might be less important than the characters attitude, which ensures the player has agency and the disposition of the authority you are dealing with, which ensures the referee retains fine control. If for plot reasons you want to take that high tech laser weapon out of the game temporarily then a slavish adherence to Law Level should not prevent you. As long as the player isn't permanently denied their cherished "Best Gun", you are not required to allow players to dictate the terms of the adventure.
The story is in that specific interaction with the law enforcement officer, not in the technical difference between a self-loading pistol and a repeating pistol. That will come out in the court case and that probably isn't the adventure you or they want to be having.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
On the civilian side, it tends to come down to local culture, and culture comes down to experience, traumatizing or otherwise.
I came across a civilized law level zero world, and decided to give them a rational as to why that was, and how that affected their treatment of weapons.
You could abuse the shotgun allowed loophole, but I rather suspect there is a minimum barrel and overall length, and magazine capacity.
I came across a civilized law level zero world, and decided to give them a rational as to why that was, and how that affected their treatment of weapons.
You could abuse the shotgun allowed loophole, but I rather suspect there is a minimum barrel and overall length, and magazine capacity.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
This is how I treat local law, a mixed bag of you have no idea what, but you can read all of the applicable laws on your computer before you land. If is it a high law planet, it may take you a whole study period to learn all of the laws, but hey, you'll have Advocate/0 afterwards...lol...
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I'm with that one guy in Total Recall [1]: "Don't fuck with your brain, pal. It ain't worth it."
[1] There is only one Total Recall.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
Pel agrees.
Quint
Mongoose
I suspect (though have never confirmed this) that is has to do with original definitions of SMGs (pistol ammunition, lower range, not as accurate - all not as compared as to military automatic rifles/weapons) and its utility for Ship Crews in civilian ship defense. It allows the Imperium (and the GM) to grant civilians (and PCs) in legitimate need for some extra firepower to get it but still restrict "military-grade' weapons (better range, better damage/penetration, more accurate) and keep them out of the hands of 'the wrong sort of people'.
D.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The first major federal firearms law passed in the 20th century was the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. It was passed after Prohibition-era gangsterism peaked with the Saint Valentine's Day massacre of 1929. The era was famous for criminal use of firearms such as the Thompson submachine gun (Tommy gun) and sawed-off shotgun. Under the NFA, machine guns, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and other weapons fall under the regulation and jurisdiction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) as described by Title II.[35]
