Starship troopers rumours

[rust]

Heinlein's vision was not facist, but about a free civilization, where you choose to be a resident or a citizen.

I think this is very much a matter of cultural perspective. Over here the
book was not received very well, because much of what Heinlein wrote
in it is virtually indistinguishable from fascist and neo-fascist propagan-
da. Heinlein wrote his book against a different cultural background and
certainly intended a different meaning of what he wrote, but unfortuna-
tely it is very easy to read another, more dark meaning into the book.

This is how Verhoeven did read the book (or at least the part of it he did
actually read), and coming from a culture which suffered immensely un-
der a fascist occupation this is hardly a surprise. As a result he attemp-
ted to give his movie an anti-fascist / anti-militaristic message and to turn
it at least partially into a parody of fascism.

In a way he failed miserably. Today the uncut version of his movie is "x-
rated" in Germany, the DVD may not be advertised, publicly displayed or
in any way made accessible to persons under the age of 18, and the cut
version had lots of its text altered. The reason is that Verhoeven's movie
fell into the same trap as Heinlein's book, much of it is still indistinguisha-
ble from militaristic fascist and neo-fascist propaganda - another intended
meaning, but exactly the same phrases, and therefore all too easy to mis-
understand.

Personally I am somewhat "on the fence". I give Heinlein the benefit of the
doubt and accept that he probably just did not know and understand that
his book could change its meaning if seen from a different cultural perspec-
tive. Still, I cannot read many parts of it without thinking that this could al-
so have been written, with the same phrases but (hopefully) different inten-
ded meaning, by someone from the darkest part of our history.

Edit.:
By the way, Starship Troopers was translated into German in 1979, much la-
ter than most other Heinlein novels - for twenty years no German publisher
dared to touch this book with a ten foot pole, knowing what the public reac-
tion would be like.

 

[Rick]

I haven't read Heilein's book in a while, but it always seemed more of an autocratic society than a fascist one (although there's probably only a fine line between them) - Heilein had some odd ideas about how the world should be run - not sure his military citizenship government would work very well; government by military in most forms hasn't worked well to date.

 

[GypsyComet]

Heinlein had some odd ideas about how the world should be run...

Which have little or nothing to do with Starship Troopers. Heinlein protrayed a great many societies across his works. Some were portrayed as functional, some not, but they were settings for the stories being told. Heinlein was one of the generation of SF writers who actually *explored* options or possible paths to see where they led.

 

[Rick]

Heinlein had some odd ideas about how the world should be run...

Which have little or nothing to do with Starship Troopers. Heinlein protrayed a great many societies across his works. Some were portrayed as functional, some not, but they were settings for the stories being told. Heinlein was one of the generation of SF writers who actually *explored* options or possible paths to see where they led.

Heinlein has always been one of my favourite authors - I have enjoyed reading his books over the years and I would hold him as one of the great sci-fi writers of all time. However, it has to be said that there are some recurring themes in a lot of his books, the later ones in particular, that were ways that he himself thought would improve the society in which he lived.

 

[GypsyComet]

Starship Troopers was hardly a "later book", but I take your meaning. After the strokes his writings changed.

Heinlein was certainly a proponent of the "Responsible Man" approach to society, and was also apparently big on the idea of "paying forward". His frequent returns, in early books, to the themes of self reliance, preparedness, and responsibility were due (or responsible) in some part to many of his so-called "juveniles" being serialized in "Boys Life" and other periodicals associated with the Boy Scouts of America. If your publisher holds to a particular moral code of conduct, writing outside it is a good way to not get published...

 

[Rick]

Ah well, I think with Starship Troopers, he was looking at the Ancient Greek idea of the responsibilities of citizenship - one of which was military service (more than just a territorial army - you were required to serve in the regular army). A lot of the responsibilities of citizenship from the book are just skimmed over or ignored in the films, which changes the whole message.

 

[Lincolnlog]

I haven't read Heilein's book in a while, but it always seemed more of an autocratic society than a fascist one (although there's probably only a fine line between them) - Heilein had some odd ideas about how the world should be run - not sure his military citizenship government would work very well; government by military in most forms hasn't worked well to date.

In the book "Starship Troopers" the military didn't run the governement. You simply had to be a veteran to be a full citizen. I like Juan Rico's quote near the end of the book when he says "I vote every time I make a drop". He was referring to the fact that although he was not yet a citizen (had not completed his service and therefore his franchise) he voted with his actions by defending the Federation. That is what police officers, fire fighters, and military personnel do every day. By the way in the book universe, fire fighters and policemen were also required to be veterans. The overall theme was civic virtue.

Starship Troopers was hardly a "later book", but I take your meaning. After the strokes his writings changed.

Heinlein was certainly a proponent of the "Responsible Man" approach to society, and was also apparently big on the idea of "paying forward". His frequent returns, in early books, to the themes of self reliance, preparedness, and responsibility were due (or responsible) in some part to many of his so-called "juveniles" being serialized in "Boys Life" and other periodicals associated with the Boy Scouts of America. If your publisher holds to a particular moral code of conduct, writing outside it is a good way to not get published...

The ancient Greeks were actually big on the concept of civic virtue. Several of his books "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "Tunnel in the Sky", and the one where he goes to Venus, can't remember the title of that one, all pseak of political involvement as a citizen and placing the good of the body politic above one's self. In the book you really have to pay close attention to the classes in History and Moral Philosophy.

Rust: I served in West Germany not too far from where you reside, and there has always been a cultural avoidance of unfortunate past historical occurances. I read on the Avlon Hill boards that because their mini's are sold in Germany, the historically accurate Swatika's cannot be presented on the mini's. All nations have unfortunate periods in their histories, skeletons in the closet so to speak. The US is certainly no exception. We trumped up and entire war against Spain on a false claim of terroism. I know alot of my fellow countrymen would defend this action, but the history does not support our actions entirely. Manifest Destiny and the ACW are two more cases where we didn't neccessarily have our moral stuff together. But we don't suppress that history, its over and need to learn from it, not ignore it or fear it.

Bob

 

[rust]

But we don't suppress that history, its over and need to learn from it, not ignore it or fear it.

I think our problem in this regard is that we are not yet sure whether
it is indeed over, or whether some of it is still ongoing and needs to
be fought. In my view we will need at least one more generation be-
fore any return to a more normal treatment of our recent history will
be possible.

 

[Rick]

In the book "Starship Troopers" the military didn't run the governement. You simply had to be a veteran to be a full citizen. I like Juan Rico's quote near the end of the book when he says "I vote every time I make a drop". He was referring to the fact that although he was not yet a citizen (had not completed his service and therefore his franchise) he voted with his actions by defending the Federation. That is what police officers, fire fighters, and military personnel do every day. By the way in the book universe, fire fighters and policemen were also required to be veterans. The overall theme was civic virtue.

True - technically, the military did not run the government, However, with the entire voting population being veterans, with non-veterans being disenfranchised; it gave a strong voice to the military minded ruling classes, while any different views were prevented from being heard in the political arena. Which gives you a very biased, autocratic form of government.

 

[rust]

True - technically, the military did not run the government, However, with the entire voting population being veterans, with non-veterans being disenfranchised; it gave a strong voice to the military minded ruling classes, while any different views were prevented from being heard in the political arena. Which gives you a very biased, autocratic form of government.

At least it would require a society which has good reasons to trust
its military. Heinlein seemed to believe that the military is a basi-
cally moral and responsible institution, but history has lots of exam-
ples where the military was the worst part, not the best part, of a
society. For people from those societies the idea that the military
would dominate the politics (again) would be about the worst possi-
ble nightmare - just think of Argentina or Chile as examples.

 

[Rick]

Yeah - if you contrast the idea of the military in Starship Troopers (post WW2) with the Falkenbergs Legion or Hammers Slammers series' (post Vietnam), Heinlein is a lot less cynical about the military (or the political usage of the military) than Drake or Pournelle. Product of the place and time, I suppose!

 

[Lincolnlog]

In the book "Starship Troopers" the military didn't run the governement. You simply had to be a veteran to be a full citizen. I like Juan Rico's quote near the end of the book when he says "I vote every time I make a drop". He was referring to the fact that although he was not yet a citizen (had not completed his service and therefore his franchise) he voted with his actions by defending the Federation. That is what police officers, fire fighters, and military personnel do every day. By the way in the book universe, fire fighters and policemen were also required to be veterans. The overall theme was civic virtue.

True - technically, the military did not run the government, However, with the entire voting population being veterans, with non-veterans being disenfranchised; it gave a strong voice to the military minded ruling classes, while any different views were prevented from being heard in the political arena. Which gives you a very biased, autocratic form of government.

But in acuallity, most veterans in Heinleins book were not combat veterans. The theme was service, and placing the good of the nation above the individual. I think that message gets lost in the war theme of the book.

Heinlein argues that population pressure causes all war, and that other cause (religion, geopolitical posturing, ecoonmics) are all factors of populations pressure. I'm not sure I buy this argument. But, there is a comparison of politcal systems, and the benefits of those systems toward their own and peoples cause. The message hre was strongly anti-comunist. At the time the book was written there was a comunist insurrection in Cuba, we had just finished Korea, and fighting in Africa, Greece in the late 40's, and we already had advisors in Vietnam. The book was not so much pro war or military, as it was anti-comunist.

Bob

 

[rust]

The book was not so much pro war or military, as it was anti-comunist.

This may be, but in this case it treated the military as the best (if not
only) tool to fight communism, which would also be a rather militarist
approach to the problem.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

It might also be because Heinlein actually served in the Military (US Naval Academy graduate), so he knows the military from the inside.

Not sure about Pournelle or Drake.

People who have been in the military often have quite a different view of the military than "civilians", no matter how much of an "expert" they might be.

Serving in a war vs serving in peacetime also makes a difference.

 

[rust]

Hmm ... think of Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five" or
Joe Haldeman's "Forever War", to name just two examples
of authors who served in the US military in war time and had
a completely different view of the military than Heinlein did.

 

[Rick]

David Drake served in Vietnam, Jerry Pournelle in Korea, both Army I think. If you read the Hammers Slammers and Falkenberg series - you can tell the differences between the wars (more so with Drake).
Perhaps we should split it along service lines! :lol:

There are some anti-communist themes in Drake, Pournelle and Haldeman's books as well, but they are much more cynical about the pro-military approach than Heinlein. Drake and Pournelle in particular come across very strongly on the theme of the military being used to clean up problems caused by political interference.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

It might also be because Heinlein actually served in the Military (US Naval Academy graduate), so he knows the military from the inside.

Not sure about Pournelle or Drake.

People who have been in the military often have quite a different view of the military than "civilians", no matter how much of an "expert" they might be.

Serving in a war vs serving in peacetime also makes a difference.

Heinlein did serve in the USN, it was peacetime service and he was invalided out well before WWII. He was also commissioned, and perhaps had an officers view of things. Drake and some other authors, e.g. Haldemann, were called up and and served at or near the front in a shooting war (and one that is still very controversial, 50 years on).

To my mind, in Starship Troopers Heinlein tend to both idealise and idolise his super soldiers, and encourage the reader to identify with (or aspire to) the virtues of the Mobile Infantry.

As others have pointed out, Heinlein could be accused of putting forward a very authoritarian, militaristic and conservative system, all features of fascism, and though he stresses the importance of the veterans being the only ones to vote, he is pretty vague about how politics works in his world, and how the rest of the populance feel about paying their taxes but not being represented.

Interesting that the bugs are portrayed as "communists" as well as being clearly "the other", classic hate figures of fascism.

Egil

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Didn't Rico have a conversation with his dad about Citizenship in the book? Basically, if you don't care about politics and just want to make a living and live your life, you don't need to be a citizen. BUT, you can always join the military if you decide you need to change things.

I do agree that a volunteer vs a draftee might have a very different opinion about the military.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Didn't Rico have a conversation with his dad about Citizenship in the book? Basically, if you don't care about politics and just want to make a living and live your life, you don't need to be a citizen. BUT, you can always join the military if you decide you need to change things.

I do agree that a volunteer vs a draftee might have a very different opinion about the military.

Yes, it's is part of Heinlein's suggestion that only veterans should be allowed to be full members of society, but he generously allows that other people can have a life as well, in a society in which they are not represented.

A kind of Athenian democracy, complete with a disempowered slave class.

Egil

 

[locarno24]

I do agree that a volunteer vs a draftee might have a very different opinion about the military.

Well - that was one of the points, which has since become a standard fixture in western militaries, that they don't want draftees if it can possibly be avoided.

By the way in the book universe, fire fighters and policemen were also required to be veterans. The overall theme was civic virtue.

Other way around, I thought. Federal service wasn't just military - most of the dangerous emergency services qualified. So was hazardous-gear testing for the colonial services (which Rico nearly ended up doing due to his being utterly unqualified for anything else). It was a bone of contention with the ship's crews, if I remember correctly, that the merchant navy (or whatever it was called) didn't. There was a quote from one of the recruiters that 'if you turned up blind, deaf and without the use of your legs, but were adamant about it, we would still have to find you some form of federal service you could do."

Yeah, the first movie was great fun (the less said about the other two the better), but not Heinlein's vision. Personally I think Verhoven realised that he would have to spend a lot more on props and cgi to do the book justice, and he couldn't really be bothered, so it all became a bit of a good humoured caper and parody. Oddly enough, the bugs themselves rather lost out as well, Heinlein was envisaging a technologically advanced race, but with a very different mentality.

I have a 'making of' book for the first film, and that pretty much somes it up - there were about a dozen concept designs both for powered armour and drop capsules, but he claims none that were useable given the budgets. He basically said he didn't want ("couldn't ever see") bugs with guns, and then, given that, he was left with the problem that jump-capable infantry with the augmented strength to tear any living creature apart couldn't realistically be threatened by a big ant with sharp claws - they couldn't be caught, and could batter any melee opponent silly, and it's hard to explain why anyone cornered didn't just jump clear. Frankly I don't get why warrior bugs with guns were such a problem, especially if you're prepared to create plasma bugs and flamethrowering tankers.

It ignored all the Paul Verhoven movie crapola and actually went back in line with the book. Robert H may then finally be able to rest in peace, I've heard his family was disappointed in Verhoven's vision. I can tell you all the Hienlien fans I know, think SciFi should do a remake like they did with Dune.

A bit naff at times though it was, I have significantly more time for the Roughneck Chronicles CGI cartoon - which is pretty much what the Mongoose RPG is based off. I think all the episodes are on the interwebz.