Starship Designs and Standard sizes

[Dave Chase]

This is mainly about having standard sizes of (common) objects in deck plans.

I have been working on various deckplans from custom to classic and sometimes to make things fit I have had to change the size fittings of several object. I try to avoid this as much as possible.

But it has also lead me to wonder if (an Un-Official) standard could be agreed upon.

I will use beds for an example

Twin                39 x 75 inches (or 99 x 190 cm) 
X-Long Twin         39 x 80 inches (99 x 203 cm) 
Full                54 x 75 inches (137 x 190 cm) 
Queen               60 x 80 inches (or 153 x 203 cm) 
King                76 x 80 inches (or 198 x 203 cm) 
California King     72 x 84 inches (or 182 x 213 cm)

Above are considered Real World Standards for beds. I had also used that any bed that was between 24 and 36 inches (61 to 92 cm) wide was considered a bunk or childs bed depending on the lenght of the bed.

Chairs (stools, lounge chair/couches, regular chairs), Acceleration couches, min width of controls, min width of entry/door ways, min size of freshers (showers, toliets, sinks) and tables (medical, eating, desk, field table/desk, etc.)

There are real world standards for most all of these but that is only for a reference. Being Science Fiction and future technology, I would be open to consider any thing that the human (or alien, a Hiver made to put this in) form could actual fit in or use.

Lets take 3 examples to elaborate what I am referring about Deckplans.

One, the Model 317 Pressurized Shelter only gives a 1.5m square to give you all your fresher needs. When I did that deckplan I made it similar to the space saving Shower/Toliets you could find in some RV's.

Two, any of the small craft shown in books only have 1.5m square for the fresher. I have assumed that it only contained a toliet and sink, similar to a standard airliner (airplane).

Three, any deckplans of starships usually have a fresher that had shower, toliet and sink in the same room but as seperate items.

(Four), on some very expensive ships there was a bathtub instead of a shower.

So, maybe is some cases it would be a designer note about how much space (volume) an individual needs to accomplish certain tasks.


Note: the more non-straight the ship design (curves, flare etc) the more difficult it is to just drop in a cabin and say that is it.
OR if you just drop in cabins and other 'standardize' rooms you will have to modify how the other components fit.

I really don't have a problem with the volumes listed in Traveller for components when they are officially listed.

Any thoughts from others.

Dave Chase

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Dave Chase,

Unfortunately, even the standard architectual designs get modified to fit the structure that they are being installed into or what the customer/designer wants. Not to mention that the standards are changed to fit the current real world situation. I watch a lot of the design shows on various channels, like HGTV and TLC, and they show that standard layouts from even a decade ago are different from today. As you mentioned the various features like freshers, staterooms, and other spaces have been modified to fit the particular hull design.

 

[Dave Chase]

Please note: I am not going to agruing that anyone is wrong. I was hoping to hold a discussion on standard sizes and deckplan issues.

Maybe I should have also said something like this in the opening post of this thread.

One of the reasons that I would like to see some type of standard sizes of objects found in a deckplan is so that those who wish to try their hand at making deckplans could have some references and guides. (Cause most of the old deck plans were just walls. )

I also have been doing some deckplans in color that include some old standard spacecraft from CT and a few custom ones (for other members.)


So,
Most of us who post here (a lot) are very much into the game & tear, chew and digest every little part of Traveller. So some times we might miss the little things that help the new, curious or 'inspired to get more involved' players/GM's who come looking for more input and idea bouncing.
For some of us, our real world life experiences and training/specialities gives us a huge advantage of knowledge or what can be. Due to this background, sometimes we might take for granted what others level of knowledge or experience.

Makes me wonder if a better subject for this type of discussion would be
Ergonomics


Ergonomics is the science of designing the job, equipment, and workplace to fit the worker.
Or the science of how much space does a human need to live, breath and operate in to be efficent.

A better topic maybe?

Dave Chase

 

[snrdg121408]

Evening Dave Chase,

Sorry, about not getting what you were trying to say, I'm an old retired submarine sailor and Traveller fan that is very often very slow on the uptake.

Anyway, back a couple of years ago I stumbled on some standard design symbols developed for Traveller. Unfortuately, I cannot seem to recall were I found them. Either I got them from an archive of gaming stuff I bought part of the archive was paper and I think one or two CD-ROMs. I'm starting to dig through my stacks of discs to see if I can locate the symbols.

Please note: I am not going to agruing that anyone is wrong. I was hoping to hold a discussion on standard sizes and deckplan issues.

Maybe I should have also said something like this in the opening post of this thread.

One of the reasons that I would like to see some type of standard sizes of objects found in a deckplan is so that those who wish to try their hand at making deckplans could have some references and guides. (Cause most of the old deck plans were just walls. )

I also have been doing some deckplans in color that include some old standard spacecraft from CT and a few custom ones (for other members.)


So,
Most of us who post here (a lot) are very much into the game & tear, chew and digest every little part of Traveller. So some times we might miss the little things that help the new, curious or 'inspired to get more involved' players/GM's who come looking for more input and idea bouncing.
For some of us, our real world life experiences and training/specialities gives us a huge advantage of knowledge or what can be. Due to this background, sometimes we might take for granted what others level of knowledge or experience.

Makes me wonder if a better subject for this type of discussion would be
Ergonomics


Ergonomics is the science of designing the job, equipment, and workplace to fit the worker.
Or the science of how much space does a human need to live, breath and operate in to be efficent.

A better topic maybe?

Dave Chase

 

[Dave Chase]

Evening Dave Chase,

Sorry, about not getting what you were trying to say, I'm an old retired submarine sailor and Traveller fan that is very often very slow on the uptake.

Anyway, bck a couple of years ago I stumbled on some standard design symbols developed for Traveller. Unfortuately, I cannot seem to recall were I found them. Either I got them from an archive of gaming stuff I bought part of the archive was page and I think one or two CD-ROMs. I'm starting to dig through my stacks of discs to see if I can locate the symbols.

Thanks, BTW, I have most of the Classic Traveller books and the Complete CD of CT. I have a few bits and pieces of some of the other versions.

I think I got most of the symbols for Traveller, but I do appreciate your offer of help.

I have been posting on another forum about this also.

I really think what I was trying to ask for in suggestions was this

One of the reasons that I would like to see some type of standard sizes of objects found in a deckplan is so that those who wish to try their hand at making deckplans could have some references and guides. (Cause most of the old deck plans were just walls. )

And I just did not or am not doing a good job of asking/dicussing it.

Back when having just room layouts on the deckplans for a starship was great. But it seems today that players want more details in those deckplans.
Also it seems that more GM's (and Players) are wanting deck plans of space ships.

I was just wanting to make, create or cause to be in available various designs laying out what kind of standards there would be in Traveller.

Currently (depending on what version you own) it's 4 tons required of stateroom per individual. Yet it say not all 4 tons are required to be a stateroom, and some of that tonnage could be lounge, open areas, hallways, etc.

Its a bit confusing for some of the newer players/GM's and even for some of us older ones, it just depends on your favorite system.

Dave Chase

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again Dave Chase,

Thanks for jogging my memory, Marc Miller's Traveller, aka T4, Naval Architect's Manual Book D published by Imerium Games has plans with standard symbols. GT: Modular Cutter also has deck plans with symbols for various objects and fittings. Digging through one of my game storage spots I found one of the items I mention which is titled Game Master's Utilities version 1.0. Unfortunately this is hadrcopy materials not the, I think, 2 CD-ROMs. I'll keep looking.

Evening Dave Chase,

Sorry, about not getting what you were trying to say, I'm an old retired submarine sailor and Traveller fan that is very often very slow on the uptake.

Anyway, back a couple of years ago I stumbled on some standard design symbols developed for Traveller. Unfortuately, I cannot seem to recall were I found them. Either I got them from an archive of gaming stuff I bought part of the archive was paper and I think one or two CD-ROMs. I'm starting to dig through my stacks of discs to see if I can locate the symbols.

Thanks, BTW, I have most of the Classic Traveller books and the Complete CD of CT. I have a few bits and pieces of some of the other versions.

I think I got most of the symbols for Traveller, but I do appreciate your offer of help.

I have been posting on another forum about this also.

I really think what I was trying to ask for in suggestions was this

One of the reasons that I would like to see some type of standard sizes of objects found in a deckplan is so that those who wish to try their hand at making deckplans could have some references and guides. (Cause most of the old deck plans were just walls. )

And I just did not or am not doing a good job of asking/dicussing it.

Back when having just room layouts on the deckplans for a starship was great. But it seems today that players want more details in those deckplans.
Also it seems that more GM's (and Players) are wanting deck plans of space ships.

I was just wanting to make, create or cause to be in available various designs laying out what kind of standards there would be in Traveller.

Currently (depending on what version you own) it's 4 tons required of stateroom per individual. Yet it say not all 4 tons are required to be a stateroom, and some of that tonnage could be lounge, open areas, hallways, etc.

Its a bit confusing for some of the newer players/GM's and even for some of us older ones, it just depends on your favorite system.

Dave Chase

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Dave Chase,

I've found the rest of the Game Master's Utilities which I miss counted. There are 4 CD-ROMs which are or were created by Mystic Station Designs, LLC. Unfortunately, they do not appear to have the symbols I was recalling, which means I downloaded them from somewhere. There does appear to be some material that one could use for a Traveller adventure or campaign.
I'm hoping that I was smart enough to have saved a copy on one of my backups. :lol:

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning Dave Chase from the Pacific Northwest,

I have finally found the deckplan symbols after looking at 6 CD-ROMs and 13 Zip discs. Unfortunately, I cannot open the files since they are in a CorelDraw format.

 

[Dave Chase]

Hello Dave Chase,

I've found the rest of the Game Master's Utilities which I miss counted. There are 4 CD-ROMs which are or were created by Mystic Station Designs, LLC. Unfortunately, they do not appear to have the symbols I was recalling, which means I downloaded them from somewhere. There does appear to be some material that one could use for a Traveller adventure or campaign.
I'm hoping that I was smart enough to have saved a copy on one of my backups. :lol:

OK, now you have really got my attention.

Never heard of the Game Master's Utilities. Are the a Traveller type supplement or program?

Oh, and I have some of the GURPS Modular Cutter (which is one of my favorite space crafts in Traveller) and T4 Naval Architect's Manual and FFS.

These are good sources for those of us that collect Traveller, or at least acumulate Traveller versions.

I was hoping that a new version of deckplans, ships components and such would be created or at least a fan site/group of unofficial sizes and equipment would be. It would help all Traveller players and maybe give inspiration to the new players as well.

Dave Chase

 

[snrdg121408]

Dave here is the link to the company that put out the Game Master's Utilities http://www.mysticstation.com/. I verified that the link is still active and saw that they appear to be resellers of BITS products. McAffee's SiteAdvisor lists the site as safe. Yippee, I just found that I have the deckplan symbols saved as .gif files and zip files. The symbols appear to be for GT since the scale is in yards. If you would like a copy please send me an email so I can share them with you?

Also here is a document published by Christopher Trash for GT, unfortunately the link is no longer active.

Architectural standards for deck plans (human scale; all figures rounded
up to nearest 0.5 ft):

Crawl pipe 2.5 ft diameter
Crawlway 2 ft wide x 3 ft high

Catwalk 2.5 ft wide x 6 ft high
(1 person passing, stooped)

Passageway 3.5 ft wide x 6.5 ft high
(1 person standing, 1 person passing)

Corridor 4.5 ft wide x 6.5 ft high
(2 persons passing)

Doorway 2.5-3 ft wide

Deck hatch 2 ft square or diameter
w/ space suit [sic] 3 ft diameter

Bulkhead access hatch max 1 ft above deck
2.5 ft wide x 2.5 ft high

Vertical ladder 2.5 ft wide x 3 ft deep
0.5 ft from side
1 ft between rungs
min 3 ft extend above top deck

Stair ladder 60 degree slope
2.5 ft wide (one way)
1 ft between risers
6-6.5 ft clearance
rail 3 ft above risers

Decking and bulkheads 1:20 depth-to-span ratio
(assuming space frame construction)
Bulkheads 11-14 ft high (total) x 1 ft thick
Decking 2-3.5 ft deep x 40-70 ft max span
8-9 ft head clearance

References:

Ramsey and Sleeper, Architectural Graphic Standards, 7th ed., 1989.
GURPS Traveller, p. 153.


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[Dave Chase]

Thanks snrdg121408,
Greatly appericated.

Dave Chase

 

[AndrewW]

Morning Dave Chase from the Pacific Northwest,

I have finally found the deckplan symbols after looking at 6 CD-ROMs and 13 Zip discs. Unfortunately, I cannot open the files since they are in a CorelDraw format.

Try this: http://macromonster.com/index.php?mod=descr&id_desc=23

 

[kristof65]

Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer and it's Cosmographer add-on have all sorts of space/starship symbols in standard sizes for their software. Hatches, Iris valves, control panels, chairs, bunks, etc.

The new updated Cosmographer is next on their release list, too. If you do a lot of campaign maps/deckplans/buildings/etc, it's worth it to purchase and learn.

 

[Dave Chase]

Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer and it's Cosmographer add-on have all sorts of space/starship symbols in standard sizes for their software. Hatches, Iris valves, control panels, chairs, bunks, etc.

The new updated Cosmographer is next on their release list, too. If you do a lot of campaign maps/deckplans/buildings/etc, it's worth it to purchase and learn.

Campaign Cartographer is pretty good, I own CC2 with Cities. I do not owm Cosmographer yet. I have been using AutoREALM to do my current deckplans.

Symbols and predesigned objects are nice. But you need to know what size things are to make the fit correctly.


Dave Chase