Starports

[EDG]

Despite going on about how good starports on low tech worlds make no sense, I must admit to being intrigued by the idea that starports may not actually have anything to do with the planet they're on (I believe this idea actually comes up in canon, in MT?). But let's think about that for a sec.

Let's say that the Imperium spies a good system to build a good starport on, but it's got a low tech culture. And let's say that the Imps just either go down to the planet and say "hi, we're from outer space, we'd like to build a starport with shipyards and refineries on your planet, but it's OUR territory and if you cross the line then you're in our domain" (again I think this extraterritoriality line is mentioned in canon). And if the locals agree (if they even are offered a choice) then the Impies build a fully functional TL 10+ type A starport + startown on their planet, with all the factories, construction facilities, technological base etc that they need, and probably populate it with people imported from elsewhere that are familiar with the technology.

That solves the problem of the starports on the worlds that have too low TL to support them, right? But does it really? It does get around that issue, sure - but then how does the starport TL modifier work? Take that TL 5 world I used earlier - it rolled 1 on the TL roll, and has a religious dictatorship for a government. So before the starport showed up, it was TL 0 (-1 actually). Then the starport is built and it suddenly gets a TL DM of +6, so really it should be TL 6 and not TL 5, right?

But how has the world's TL increased? Just from osmosis as visitors leave the starport? Does the Imperium bootstrap the low tech worlds that it builds starports on (but apparently not enough to get them to a useful TL for the starport)? What if the world is already high tech, shouldn't it then NOT get a TL increase since it's already at a similar tech level to the starport? And what the hell is the effect on the planet's low tech culture that suddenly has to come to terms with visitors from outer space just moving in and building their stuff on their world? Is there Culture Shock? Revolution? Technology abused by the primitives? Should those visitors even be allowed to leave the territory of the starport at all?



And what happens if the world has a higher TL than the minimum? One would think that the Imperium would just use the local technology then, but doesn't that rather blur the line between the starport territory and the native territory? And what if the high tech locals decide that actually they don't want the Imperium to build a starport on their turf that uses Imperial laws and for Imperial purposes, but they would much rather prefer to build their own starport that counts as their own territory to do as they please in?

And what if they want to plonk one down somewhere and the locals don't want them there? What happens outside the Imperium, where you don't have this empire handily plonking down starports wherever it pleases? What happens if the locals happen to level the starport in a war (accidentally or deliberately) or treat it as a strategic target?

This is why I prefer the idea that the local population has to have the TL to build the starport so that it can do everything it should be able to do. And why I'd rather have the locals own the starport and just have the Imperium run the space between the worlds as they're supposed to. Even then though, I'm kinda scratching my head as to why the TL goes up if you have a good starport - or am I thinking the wrong way round here, and it's really that the tech level bonus is to give the planet the right sort of TL to sustain a starport of that type??

 

[captainjack23]

Despite going on about how good starports on low tech worlds make no sense, I must admit to being intrigued by the idea that starports may not actually have anything to do with the planet they're on (I believe this idea actually comes up in canon, in MT?). But let's think about that for a sec.
<snip>

This is why I prefer the idea that the local population has to have the TL to build the starport so that it can do everything it should be able to do. And why I'd rather have the locals own the starport and just have the Imperium run the space between the worlds as they're supposed to. Even then though, I'm kinda scratching my head as to why the TL goes up if you have a good starport - or am I thinking the wrong way round here, and it's really that the tech level bonus is to give the planet the right sort of TL to sustain a starport of that type??

The tech imbalance for starports really has never seemed to be a big issue for me, because it doesn't require any handwaving to solve, but rather a deeper view of what the history of the situation is, and has been on our one example, Earth.

The osmosis effect is actually quite plausable, and historically quite a few areas have been inadvertently bootstrapped by the presence of a foreign port (Vietnam comes to mind under french rule); the issues you raise abut the effects are valid, but they do seem to also be asking the question, "where are the effects of that osmisis, right now." (ie the cultural problems and etc. )

Not recasting your question, but suggesting thinking about the issue in an (OTU) historical perspective. For argument, lets take the case of Saigon....a crucial french port by 1939, central to colonial intrests in SE asia. (Class A by out standards, heavy industry shipbuilding and fixing, etcprobably tech 5)It has an educated middle class of french colonists and staff, a similar but smaller class of educated locals, a less uneducated labor force that is paid and has access to all kinds of high tech stuff (relatively -such as canned food, bycycles, etc)In the hills are the Montaignards, Huks, and Tcho-Tcho (The latter being real sounding but ficticious tech 0/1 local savages if ever there were some)
Between the two, are the laborers' villages, colonial run plantations, and some small service industries that use more or less locals (roads, rail, telegraph; probably tech 3-4); as we get closer to the wilds, small farms with some improvements over tech 2 or 3 (steel tools can make a huge difference) that are traded by folks closer to Saigon, and local peddlers.

Now, the point of this, is that in 1841 (tech 4), Saigon was much smaller, and essentially a trading post with native porters, and honestly, slaves. (class D) the local tech was probably solidly 2 immediately around the post, and 0 or 1 in the highlands. The issues with diffusion and cultural unrest all occurred, and existed (simmering in the hinterland until 1941), and took place across a century. Fifty years later, and another round of coonial wars (and isolated bases in wilderness areas) Vietnam is certainly a modern country - running its own ports.

The point of this is not a defense of colonialism (there are lots better ways to bootstrap -starting with not having it done at gunpoint), but rather to point out that the situation isn't necessarily that the population was tech 1 one day, a starport was dropped, and poof! Tech 5.

It probably did happen, but hundreds of years ago...with the tech gradually spreading out all the time. The depth of time in the OTU is astonishing, and often underestimated. The time required to have a tech 0 population be gradually moved to 5 or higher easily exists.

That it takes so long, in history, and the (OTU) has more to do with the goals of the source of advanced technology (the starport) than anything else. Ships need ports and refueling and maintainance-constructing too. Crews need support, the whole thing needs administration. A technically elevated and suddenly educated local native populace, possibly quite annoyed with the aliens, is probably not seen as a good thing for getting business done...ask the French in indochina 1946.

Intentionally elevating the locals is probably a very unlikely goal of the port builders - no doubt justified by the goal of "preserving local culture", but butressed by "keeping the Wogs with strong backs and weak minds for as long as possible"; so as it did historically, it leaks thru - partly through greed of the imperials (they'll trade gold nuggets for steel plows ? YAH BABY !); and the unavoidable education of the locals needed to supplement a colonial infrastructure. But it is fundamentally a side effect, and an undesired one at that. Here it depends on the etos of the colonial power. Some treat it with neglect, ignoring the changes; others put some effort inton a long term elevation problem (usually causing far more cultural unrest and problems than if left alone) and some do actively squash the native attempts to elevate themselves.

That the OTU has regular plusses for starports, I submit that the strategy may be one of benign neglect...they dont baracade the starport technologically, but they discourage non administratively approved elevation of the locals.

The final point then, is that by considering the depth of history in the setting, as opposed to the situation at the moment the planet is rolled up, independent starports + osmosis is a very real and very likely source of tech advancement on low tech local populations; and fits well with the OTU.

 

[EDG]

The final point then, is that by considering the depth of history in the setting, as opposed to the situation at the moment the planet is rolled up, independent starports + osmosis is a very real and very likely source of tech advancement on low tech local populations; and fits well with the OTU.

But then why should a high tech world get a +6 (or +4 or +2) on its TL as well? There can't be any osmosis going on there if the world's TL is already sufficient to do everything the starport does.

 

[captainjack23]

The final point then, is that by considering the depth of history in the setting, as opposed to the situation at the moment the planet is rolled up, independent starports + osmosis is a very real and very likely source of tech advancement on low tech local populations; and fits well with the OTU.

But then why should a high tech world get a +6 (or +4 or +2) on its TL as well? There can't be any osmosis going on there if the world's TL is already sufficient to do everything the starport does.

A port in a mainstream, technologically mature (with regards to the dominant setting)setting, such as Boston is and should be a different kettle of tech than the port on a frontier world. However, the fact that the world is a high tech (settled, technolgicaly mature world) can be because of the starport, does make it a bit of a tautology, I admit. So, for the moment, my answer is: "good question".

The question here, and what confuses me, is this: are we talking about post hoc explainations of the situations (which can range from perfectly reasonable to handwaving); or are we applying the same analysis to the modifiers of the sytem that creates it ? Which kind of gets to the question of does/must the mechanism model the process (historical development -a high tech world gets higher simply due to a starport), of is it just a means to an end (create the worlds, vette them (manually or mechanistically) and then describe them.


So, if one simply wants to have the examples, and one wants more high tech worlds than less, the mod makes sense - all we want is more HT worlds, the modifier is an artficial constraint, and irrelevent, as long as the final result is what is wanted. In which case, the +4/+6 modifier is fine and dandy as it produces the desired outcome.

If one on the other hand wants the modifiers to have an internal consistency -that is, one that reflects the process of a high tech world developing - the broad application of the same modifier in two different situations is hard to accept, or justify.

While the second seems more logical than the first, its much harder, and unfortunately falls down on the fact that the system it is modifying, and the limits of themath are inherently missing enough granularity to pass a close inspection. Conversely, the first also fails as it cannot justify the process in any terms other than what it produces. A black box solution.


So, heres my best answer to the question you pose: If you want more internal consistency, and are willing to accept the possibility of criticisms of granularity and realism, cap the modifier such that it doesn't raise any tech higher than it ought. Where that is another issue -should it be the minimum TL nec to make starships for A ports ? Or higher, as once in place a starport will be amagnet for trade and tech advancement. An if the TL is already pretty high, is there a point of diminishing returns ?

On the other hand, if the goal is controlling the ratio or liklihood of high tech (or low tech, as the argument is symmetrical...mostly), then apply it freely, and examine the outcome.

Me, I'd consider the first more closely, and say that starport mods can't raise a system's tech above A = 14,B = 11, C= 9,or D=8; but I'd be fine with applying it accross the board, if the output was appropriate to the setting .....

However I'd want to consider that lowtech Hiqual starports are MUCH rarer than Hitech high quality starports. If the upper end solution works well in the logic test, perhaps the uniqueness of the lower end is a good part of the descriptive justification: Saigons were less frequent than Bostons.

I'd also want to check if the highest techs can be reached without the starport mod, also. If not, its an argument that part of the definition of high tech levels is the presense of a high quality starport. This is a big'un.

 

[Sturn]

I believe any sort of starport could be laid down on a planet by a higher TL government/corporation, as long as they had a good reason. Trade, military strongholds, and simply opening contact with a new world are reasons that come to mind.

As for a starport affecting TL, I do think the large DMs of the upper starports seem to much. I do however completely believe that a starport would greatly affect a world's TL, especially the low Tech ones. The starport opens trade that brings in higher TL items. Imagine if modern Earth suddenly had a starport plopped down outside NY City, linking us to a 15 TL society. In no time, rich folk would be buying grav vehicles, and the cell phone would be replaced by a minicomp. The US would quickly be moving from a TL8? society. In a decade, the imported higher TL items would be the norm, at least for the rich.

Another thing to consider. It could just be the way you think about the DMs. For example, the +DMs for a starport make us automatically think that a starport affects the TL of a world. This of course is true. In the end though, the opposite result is also true - the TL of a world affects the starport type. What? Look at the 12+ TL worlds, they tend to have a much better starport then low TL worlds. Look at the final indirect result, not just the math that gets you there.

 

[Ishmael]

I think it all depends on how you view tech levels...

Is it a measure of local rpoduction abilities?
or is it the tech of available goods?

The OTU's use of starport type as a modifier to tech indicates the latter. Starports being where hi-tech good filter onto a lo-tech world. But it also means that EVERYTHING available at the starport above loaclly producable tech must be imported....And it also begs the question, "If the starport is not military, then who are its customers?"..on a lo-tech world, not the locals. I'd think such a starport would be built to service a trade route...ironicly, that would be what a military base is built for..protecting that trade route.
I guess that would be like the forts of the Old West in the US. So such a thing is possible.

I prefer to think of tech level as being local production and thus I use tech level as a modifier to starport type with more advanced tech available via import trade. Even in the 'old west' analogy, the forts where built and mainatined using local available materials ( resource production ) and technologies. What was needed beyond that had to be imported...and as in canon, some of those imports filtered out to lo-tech natives.

I suppose in the end, it doesn't matter too much. If the world is important to an adventure, the ref will decide the nature of the relationship between the starport and tech level. I'll continue to do things as I have in any case...
world physicals affect population/social stats
pop/social stats affect tech level
tech level affects starport type
starport type affects trade and trade volume ( until I decide on economic model, anyways )

 

[Supplement Four]

Despite going on about how good starports on low tech worlds make no sense, I must admit to being intrigued by the idea that starports may not actually have anything to do with the planet they're on (I believe this idea actually comes up in canon, in MT?).

Consider a US military base in the Vietnam conflict. High tech base. Low tech environment.

 

[EDG]

Consider a US military base in the Vietnam conflict. High tech base. Low tech environment.

OK, considered. But I'm not saying it can't, doesn't, or hasn't happened. Did you actually read what followed the part you quoted?

I'm asking what the implications would be for the OTU if this is how starports were actually supposed to work. i.e. If every single starport was plonked down by the Imperium, regardless of whether the planet was too low tech to even graps the concept of "visitors from another world that look exactly like we do who want to use our land to park their flying ships" or if it was so high tech that it viewed the Imperium as a technological equal and could easily build its own starports and starships on its own terms (in which case, why don't they, and what happens if they try?). I'll note that without any starport DMs, the highest possible TL in CT is 14 (E), for an D000A57-E system that rolls 6 on its 1D TL roll - so you can easily get systems that are high tech enough to build damn good starships without the A/B/C starports that further increase their TL.

So, what should the consequences of this approach be on the OTU if you follow it all to its logical conclusions?

 

[RandyT0001]

At the beginning tech level was a measure of local production.

From LBB3, p7; (MT Ref Man, p21; TNE p183):
"The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world."

LBB3 p8: (absent in MT and TNE)
"The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local indusrty."

When numerous fans asked GDW for an explaination about the discrepency on some worlds that had lower than required TL for the class of starport that was present (like Kinorb and Heya in the Regina subsector published in Adventure 1) GDW published it's "contradiction" in Supplement 3 Spinward Marches.

Supp 3 SM p38-39;
"As a general indication of the degree of sophistication in equipment, in manufacturing ability, and in general style of life, the technological code is perhaps the best single measure."

Then two sentences down Supp 3 p39;
"It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present."

Well the last sentence does make sense and helps to explain the situation when applied to 'non-industrial' (Ni) trade classified worlds. However a number of fans seized upon it to justify the idea that an A type starport on a world of less that TL9 imports supplies to support the existance of the starport. To me this is a mis-application of what was originally intended by GDW. Not too long thereafter GDW adopted this justification, IMO because it was easier than re-writing and correcting the bad UWP's already published.

The significance of the population code in the UWP suffered a similar change in meaning from the original LBB's versus later works. But that's for another post.

 

[EDG]

Supp 3 SM p38-39;
"As a general indication of the degree of sophistication in equipment, in manufacturing ability, and in general style of life, the technological code is perhaps the best single measure."

Then two sentences down Supp 3 p39;
"It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present."

So... in their attempt to clarify the situation, GDW ended up presenting two very contradictory explanations on the same page in the same supplement?!

The first indicates that TL is linked to manufacturing ability (among other things). The second indicates that it doesn't necessarily have to be linked to manufacturing ability. Right?

Though the rest of the explanation makes a kind of sense - a city can have computers or cars even if the factories that make those things don't exist in it. Fine - but if the TL isn't supposed to mean "this technology can be made here" then what the heck does mean that?!


I also note that it says:

The standard technological level for most of the interior of the lmperium is in a range between A (10) and D (13) with a general maximum of F (15); toward the fringes (such as the Spinward Marches) this range of levels is approximately 6 to B (11)

Well... no, that's not true. The most common TLs (if that's what it means by "standard TL") everywhere should be between 6 and B (as shown in my default CT stats thread) - if you're using the default CT rules then 62.7% of all worlds should be between TL 6 and B (inclusive). The only way that you'll get most worlds between A and D or F is if you have some extra TL DMs based on whether a sector is a Core sector or a Frontier - which is quite possible, but not actually mentioned anywhere in the rules.

 

[RandyT0001]

In MT and TNE tech level changed into:

MT Ref Man p 21; TNE p183:
"The tech level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication of the products commonly avalible on a world in urban areas and near the starport."

This was followed by an additional sentence that states that beyond the cities and starport TL probably drops one or two levels.

So now tech level is seperated from the starport despite the fact that the type of starport affects the planet's TL.

I find it illogical to believe that the people that live close to the starport don't buy higher tech items, above TL8/9, that traders could bring in. The Imperium doesn't oppose such, they are fairly laissz-faire when it comes trade. Most worlds don't have big restrictions or high law levels where one would expect the local government to stop such purchases (doesn't that go against the free trade ideas of the Imperium?).

Example:
I live close to the starport on the rich, agricultural world of Heya/Regina (B687745-5) with a low law level and can see the higher tech items used in the starport but refuse to buy anything above those items produced at TL5. Am I human? Don't seem to be because most humans given the chance to buy the latest things (advanced [robotic/AC] farm tractors/harvesters, etc) that increase my agricultural yield exports and appliances that save time doing chores (washing clothes, cooking, etc) am content with a gas stove despite the avalibility of microwave ovens from far off worlds with higher TL's and an abundance of traders that stop at this class B starport. (It is unlikely that Heya is a 'way station' in the trade lanes since the only world beyond Heya is a red zoned Corfu/Aramis. Planets in the Gvurrdon sector are J3 distant, not conducive to viable economic trade normally associated with off the main Xboat trade routes.)

To me that defies human nature and history. It's illogical.

YMMV

 

[SableWyvern]

MT Ref Man p 21; TNE p183:
"The tech level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication of the products commonly avalible on a world in urban areas and near the starport."

...

I find it illogical to believe that the people that live close to the starport don't buy higher tech items

...

I live close to the starport on the rich, agricultural world of Heya/Regina (B687745-5)

First up, note that the TL indicates what is commonly available. Certainly, there are people importing higher tech items -- they're just not common (how uncommon is going to be dependent on the specific situation and setting -- it may just mean that you have to actively hunt down higher tech stuff, and compete with other interested parties, rather than walking into the local department store and grabbing whatever you want off the shelf).

Secondly, in TNE, the world in your example has an exchange rate of 0.45, meaning that high tech items will cost more than twice as much in real terms than they will on a world with the requisite tech level. That's going to significantly inhibit widespread use of higher tech items.

 

[captainjack23]

Consider a US military base in the Vietnam conflict. High tech base. Low tech environment.

OK, considered. But I'm not saying it can't, doesn't, or hasn't happened. Did you actually read what followed the part you quoted?

I'm asking what the implications would be for the OTU if this is how starports were actually supposed to work. i.e. If every single starport was plonked down by the Imperium, regardless of whether the planet was too low tech to even graps the concept of "visitors from another world that look exactly like we do who want to use our land to park their flying ships" or if it was so high tech that it viewed the Imperium as a technological equal and could easily build its own starports and starships on its own terms (in which case, why don't they, and what happens if they try?). I'll note that without any starport DMs, the highest possible TL in CT is 14 (E), for an D000A57-E system that rolls 6 on its 1D TL roll - so you can easily get systems that are high tech enough to build damn good starships without the A/B/C starports that further increase their TL.

So, what should the consequences of this approach be on the OTU if you follow it all to its logical conclusions?

I'm not sure I understand the question of what it is being followed to its conclusion.....are you asking what if every starport was built by the imperium regardless of the planet's needs or abilities ?

Well, it is an interesting question if that's it. One thought would be that part of the imperium's "rule of the space between the planets" is predicated on complete control of access to that space. If all the ports are imperial, and one has to use the ports to get to other planets, they have an effective stranglehold on the situation.

Still, You don't need a spaceport to leave a starsystem, do you ? It makes it easier, sure...but what you need is the starship. Which can be built at type A starports -and presumably naval bases. Are they built elsewhere ? I've always assumed so - JFK international doesn't build 747's, it just accomodates them. Shipyards are at ports though - and you can't just build a mofdern ship at any backwater...so, perhaps thats the key to toal imperial control. If you want a starship, it gets built at an imperial starport; if you start building up a rebel fleet capable of trashing more than your home system, the Imperium is far more likely to find out about it, and stop it; and in any case, probably doesn't build dreadnaughts for private use.

That would certainly be one reason to justify the expense of controlling (and constructing) every single starport....much as the vilanii likely did after they realized the problems with the barbarians having jumpdrive that they had sold them. One could look at the consolidation wars as primarily aimed at regaining control of the means of creation of jump ships, and then creating a choke point to keep them controlled...such as starports.

That said, I do want to ask, why are we assuming that the situation is either/or ? The low tech worlds may be "plopped" into place, but the equitech worlds may well be able to build their own and integrate them into the imperium; and again, even independent ports have had a long time to be integrated into the mainstream of imperial culture. Is there really some reason that there can't be a variety of paths that can lead to a starport ?

 

[AKAramis]

One thing to remember about historical trends:

For the most part, until the 20th C, most countries did not by the tools, they bough only the raw materials or finished goods of high value.

Peter the Great was often in trouble because he was trying to buy factories to be shipped to Russia (a machine or 10 at a time) AND people to train Russians to run them. None of the European countries wanted Russia to have the factories. (In fact, even through Nicholas II, Russia was trying to import more factories... The Soviets turned the extant factories to producing more factories and tanks... at the expense of consumer goods... and rapidly industrialized because of it.)

Colonialism has two competing drives:
the mother country, which wants the raw materials, but wants the colony dependent for finished goods...
... and the Colony, which wants local production to reduce the costs of goods, but that drives up the local value of raw materials, eventually killing the raw materials for finished goods trade flow (often resulting in a very different finished goods for finished goods trade flow).

 

[EDG]

That said, I do want to ask, why are we assuming that the situation is either/or ? The low tech worlds may be "plopped" into place, but the equitech worlds may well be able to build their own and integrate them into the imperium; and again, even independent ports have had a long time to be integrated into the mainstream of imperial culture. Is there really some reason that there can't be a variety of paths that can lead to a starport ?

Maybe there are, but Traveller seems to mash them all together and throw in an unexplained TL DM for the starport as well.

It just doesn't really make any sense to me how they work. Do the low tech worlds have any choice about having a starport on their turf? Do the high tech worlds have a choice about whether they can run a starport as THEIR territory and on their terms rather than as an Imperial enclave where Imperial rules apply? Should the high tech worlds not get the TL boost for the good starports because they're already high tech?

Or is it just better to assume that the planets build their own starports and so need the population and TL to do so? (I think it's a lot better that way).

 

[captainjack23]

That said, I do want to ask, why are we assuming that the situation is either/or ? The low tech worlds may be "plopped" into place, but the equitech worlds may well be able to build their own and integrate them into the imperium; and again, even independent ports have had a long time to be integrated into the mainstream of imperial culture. Is there really some reason that there can't be a variety of paths that can lead to a starport ?

Maybe there are, but Traveller seems to mash them all together and throw in an unexplained TL DM for the starport as well.

It just doesn't really make any sense to me how they work. Do the low tech worlds have any choice about having a starport on their turf? Do the high tech worlds have a choice about whether they can run a starport as THEIR territory and on their terms rather than as an Imperial enclave where Imperial rules apply? Should the high tech worlds not get the TL boost for the good starports because they're already high tech?

Or is it just better to assume that the planets build their own starports and so need the population and TL to do so? (I think it's a lot better that way).

Hmmmm. It is certainly odd to find you making a simplifying systems oriented argument, and me making a complexifying reality based one...

But I exaggerate, obviously. You have a good point. I'm gonna mull on it for a bit.