SST EV Preview Cards - More MI Reinforcements have Arrived
- Thread starter Hiromoon
- Start date
The thing is:
If the Cougar LT is hit by a Holepunch Missile that rolls a hit (like 7) but not a kill (like 11) he can't use his 4+ dodge save because he will not be removed as a casuality if he he can't save the hit with his 5+ Armour Save (or if hit by a Plasmatic Cannon a 6+ Save).
On the other hand does this mean if the Cougar LT is struck down by a hit (not a kill) he can use his armour save AND his dodge save? That would be kind of silly, because he dodges something that actually already hit him...
If the Cougar LT is hit by a Holepunch Missile that rolls a hit (like 7) but not a kill (like 11) he can't use his 4+ dodge save because he will not be removed as a casuality if he he can't save the hit with his 5+ Armour Save (or if hit by a Plasmatic Cannon a 6+ Save).
On the other hand does this mean if the Cougar LT is struck down by a hit (not a kill) he can use his armour save AND his dodge save? That would be kind of silly, because he dodges something that actually already hit him...
The LT does not have a Dodge save like in the V1 rules. The wording on the card states that you use it when he is to be removed as a casualty. The first hit from a weapon that denies a save does not allow this save, so would count as the Tough ignored failed save. The next similar hit would allow the 4+ rerollable save.
Galatea is right, by the wording, you would take the 4+ rerollable save AFTER you failed your second armor save, at the point where you would remove him based on the failed-save mechanics.
"Hey! I hit you! You're dead!"
"No you didn't!"
"I saw your armor fail!"
"Mercury Jet in your face!"
"Your jets failed to get you out of the way!"
"I got a do-over!"
"You're kidding?!"
"Ha! I'm the LT B1tch!"
Galatea is right, by the wording, you would take the 4+ rerollable save AFTER you failed your second armor save, at the point where you would remove him based on the failed-save mechanics.
"Hey! I hit you! You're dead!"
"No you didn't!"
"I saw your armor fail!"
"Mercury Jet in your face!"
"Your jets failed to get you out of the way!"
"I got a do-over!"
"You're kidding?!"
"Ha! I'm the LT B1tch!"
The problem is just that the card sais "Whenever he is about to be removed from the table as a casuality".
This will not happen if you do not fail your armour save so you cannot make your dodge first.
All in all the Evo Cards look VERY unfinished and unconsidered to me (like the entire Evo rules).
I don't think the cards have ever seen a real Proofreading (remember the CHAS that could be accompanied by some additional Ripplers?) as there are certain things that conclude in really ugly rule contradictions.
btw... seen that they screwed the CHAS? No Autoloaders, extremely weak Flamer (both, damage and lethal zone), weak Ape Morita, stupid artillery rules (you won't hit anything with these).
Wonder how to justify the unchanged point value if compared to a Warrior that is completely unflawed.
This will not happen if you do not fail your armour save so you cannot make your dodge first.
All in all the Evo Cards look VERY unfinished and unconsidered to me (like the entire Evo rules).
I don't think the cards have ever seen a real Proofreading (remember the CHAS that could be accompanied by some additional Ripplers?) as there are certain things that conclude in really ugly rule contradictions.
btw... seen that they screwed the CHAS? No Autoloaders, extremely weak Flamer (both, damage and lethal zone), weak Ape Morita, stupid artillery rules (you won't hit anything with these).
Wonder how to justify the unchanged point value if compared to a Warrior that is completely unflawed.
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
1 hit model example-
target reached but not kill:
Dodge Save Pass (No need for armor, which if it had failed would give a dodge anyways)
Dodge Save Fail = Continue to armor, which if failed would have the same result, which if it passes, then you don't care about the original dodge save anyways.
OR
Armor Save Pass (no need for Dodge)
Armor Save Fail = Continue to Dodge Save
There is no difference in results as a consequence of the order.
PS- yeah the Chas did get nerfed
target reached but not kill:
Dodge Save Pass (No need for armor, which if it had failed would give a dodge anyways)
Dodge Save Fail = Continue to armor, which if failed would have the same result, which if it passes, then you don't care about the original dodge save anyways.
OR
Armor Save Pass (no need for Dodge)
Armor Save Fail = Continue to Dodge Save
There is no difference in results as a consequence of the order.
PS- yeah the Chas did get nerfed
Rabidchild
Mongoose
Won't hit anything with the artillery rules? In the games I've played I have yet to miss. In these rules you allocate to the closest model in the firezone and the blast radius is calculated from there. With firezones being the size they are, it's easy to use and easy to hit.
Okay, then it is even (much) more stupid and complicated than I imagined...Rabidchild said:
Gauntlet- said:
The Cougar WILL NOT GET his dodge if he isn't about to be removed as a casuality. So if the first hit (HIT not kill) doesn't kill him outright he won't be able to dodge this hit - he has only his armour save, which will be worse than 4+ in most cases.
He is a Multihit model and THAT is the problem. THAT is what the whole thing is about.
And yes you are right - dodge->armour makes sense in general, but unfortunately it won't solve the Cougar problem.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
Galatea said:
I'm confused what you don't like. I thought you didn't like it before because it was too difficult to hit anything. Are you saying you don't like it because it's too easy to hit things now? Maybe I made it sound complicated but I find it simple:
Place the firezone. Your opponent rolls 2D6 and moves the firezone that many inches in any direction. You roll 1D6 and move the firezone that many inches in any direction. The model in the firezone closest to the shooting model is allocated the damage dice as normal, the blast radius is calculated from that model.
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
Galatea said:
My point wasnt to solve the cougar problem, for anything but multi hit models you can do this just fine. And you can do it that way once a multihit model like the cougar is down to 1 hit.
Just saying for 90% of units with dodge, just roll the dodge first, and it makes sense and changes no math. You just don't get to dodge with a Cougar until it might die. Overall not the biggest limitation to a very powerful unit.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Practical expierence shows that it's not complicated at all, and it's more than possible to miss.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
Lorcan Nagle said:
Agreed. I never had a problem with the old system either, but I think this one is easier for new players to learn and that's a good thing.
So Galatea, why do you think it's stupid?
It is still silly complicated.
Current rules:
- Declare target point
- roll 2 dice
- subtract/add dice numbers
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- lay template down
- roll weapons damage dice against models under template
New rules:
- Declare target point
- Player A roll 2 dice
- add dice numbers
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- Player B roll 1 dice
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- determine firezone
- find nearest model in firezone
- shift target point to nearest model in FZ
- lay template down
-- roll damage against models under template
-- in some cases:
--- Roll weapons damage dice against target model
--- Roll other damage dice (weaker damage) against all other models under template
Now tell me which version is more intuitive, works faster and is less complicated.
p.s. I had NEVER ANY guy who didn't understand the old artillery rules when told the first time.
Current rules:
- Declare target point
- roll 2 dice
- subtract/add dice numbers
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- lay template down
- roll weapons damage dice against models under template
New rules:
- Declare target point
- Player A roll 2 dice
- add dice numbers
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- Player B roll 1 dice
- shift target point the appropriate distance
- determine firezone
- find nearest model in firezone
- shift target point to nearest model in FZ
- lay template down
-- roll damage against models under template
-- in some cases:
--- Roll weapons damage dice against target model
--- Roll other damage dice (weaker damage) against all other models under template
Now tell me which version is more intuitive, works faster and is less complicated.
p.s. I had NEVER ANY guy who didn't understand the old artillery rules when told the first time.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
Ah, I see. I didn't think I would agree that it's more complicated, but you're right. I think that once you play with them they seem less so, but yes there are more steps. With the old system the people that didn't understand it were the ones that tried to read the full page explanation and use the other full page chart. I didn't meet anyone that did understand that on their first try.
Really, I think they are not too different once in play. Old system takes 5 seconds, new system takes 10 and several of those are used up just deciding which direction to move the shot.
Really, I think they are not too different once in play. Old system takes 5 seconds, new system takes 10 and several of those are used up just deciding which direction to move the shot.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
One would argue that *more* complicated doesn't mean *silly* complicated.
It is very weird because after you have found out where the shot goes down you shift the target point once again to the closest model in the FZ.
That's where most of the gamers I know would begin to think WTF?
Why do you shift a scatter weapon if there is one target within 6"?
Is it a homing/seeking warhead or something like that?
That's a REALLY strange rule.
That's where most of the gamers I know would begin to think WTF?
Why do you shift a scatter weapon if there is one target within 6"?
Is it a homing/seeking warhead or something like that?
That's a REALLY strange rule.
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