Spot Hidden

[zace66]

Ok, maybe rename this skill test as NOTICE STUFF or even SEE WHATS COMING.

Whatever you call the skill, how does anyone resolve this task check?

Please dont say RECON as that puts anyone at -3 who wasnt in the army.

"Yes Senator Graal, I know you didnt see that ball bouncing towards you, but seriously, you want us to behead all children playing tennis?"

 

[rust]

If there is no skill that covers the specific problem, or if it is a very gene-
ral one, we normally use an Intelligence check (2D6 + mod, difficulty de-
pending on the circumstances).

 

[iainjcoleman]

Well, I will say "use Recon", at least in some circumstances.

In Traveller, the "notice stuff" check is covered by different skills, depending on context.

In combat, spotting hidden people or objects would be Recon. Noticing something happening in time to do something about it would be Tactics (probably by means of the initiative check).

Noticing a mugger in a dark alley? Streetwise.

Spotting a vital clue at a crime scene? Investigate.

Noticing a crucial blip on a detector? Sensors.

...and so on. Situational awareness is, well, situational. I don't think there's such a thing as general "perceptiveness" - it's more about experience, knowing what to look for, and having a sense of when something doesn't quite fit. The person who can spot a camouflaged tank at 500 m is not necesarily the person who can spot a tell-tale finger mark on a door frame.

 

[AdrianH]

My character in one game was ex-military, didn't have particularly high Intelligence, and never got the Recon skill. What he did get was a suit of combat armour as a mustering out benefit. So he was at a big penalty for Recon, which was a problem because our GM also used Recon for noticing stuff. He'd be the first one through the door (after someone had opened it for him, as he had trouble even spotting the door). Even if he couldn't see an enemy dancing in front of him in fluorescent clothing singing "Happy Days Are Here Again", he could survive being shot at, and that gave everyone behind some idea of what they were dealing with. If he didn't get shot at, it was probably safe for everyone else to enter. :lol:

 

[Paladin]

I use an INT check + any applicable skill bonus depending on the situation as iainjcoleman suggested.

 

[SSWarlock]

My character in one game was ex-military, didn't have particularly high Intelligence, and never got the Recon skill. What he did get was a suit of combat armour as a mustering out benefit...

Does the armor suit have any kind of sensors installed in it? If so, they should give at least some kind of bonus that could either 1) boost any detection skills the character has or 2) provide the character with at least level 0 in detecting basic threats/movement in the area. IMHO, of course. YMMV.

 

[Claybor]

I have been struggling with the same thing and not been happy with the possibilities, although this does a decent job of summing it up in a playable manner;

Well, I will say "use Recon", at least in some circumstances.

In Traveller, the "notice stuff" check is covered by different skills, depending on context.

In combat, spotting hidden people or objects would be Recon. Noticing something happening in time to do something about it would be Tactics (probably by means of the initiative check).

Noticing a mugger in a dark alley? Streetwise.

Spotting a vital clue at a crime scene? Investigate.

Noticing a crucial blip on a detector? Sensors.

...and so on. Situational awareness is, well, situational. I don't think there's such a thing as general "perceptiveness" - it's more about experience, knowing what to look for, and having a sense of when something doesn't quite fit. The person who can spot a camouflaged tank at 500 m is not necesarily the person who can spot a tell-tale finger mark on a door frame.

The int roll for perception makes no sense though in my opinion because one can be extremely smart yet not have good senses. I'd still like a general roll anyone can make that also makes sense.

I am in the same boat when it comes to will and charisma rolls. I think both should be represented somehow, and yet like perception, they are not.

 

[rust]

The int roll for perception makes no sense though in my opinion because one can be extremely smart yet not have good senses.

It is not about the senses, it is about the ability of the brain to evaluate
the input it gets from the senses.

For example, even an animal, a robot and a camera can "sense" that
there are two half-filled glasses on the table of a room that has only
one inhabitant, but it takes some basic intelligence to come to the con-
clusion that there is probably a second person not far away.

What "raw data" the character's senses pick up is more a matter of the
referee's description of a situation ("There is a rock.") and the player's
strategy of asking the appropriate questions ("I look behind the rock,
what do I see ?"), much less so of any skills.

 

[BP]

...I am in the same boat when it comes to will and charisma rolls. I think both should be represented somehow, and yet like perception, they are not.

End covers will = determination.

Charisma is covered more by skills in MGT (after all charisma is often a skill that may be naturally developed - but probably isn't inate - i.e. a child is unlikely to lead men in battle based on their charisma) - such as Persuade, Leadership and Diplomacy (and Deception) - which generally use Soc for DMs (sometimes Int). Social Standing, Intelligence and sometimes Edu and Str could play as DMs in situations that would match 'Charisma' in other RPGs.

 

[Claybor]

Yes, I've heard all that before, and it is fine if you are happy with it that way, I on the other hand am not. It is a matter of taste/opinion.

Endurance has a bit to do with willpower, but not that much. It is quite possible and likely to have someone with low endurance but high willpower or vice versa.

Intelligence to evaluate data to determine what to do with it makes sense, but the raw ability to see/hear something has nothing to do with intelligence.

Charisma is covered somewhat by the above mentioned skills, and I am not as unhappy with that aspect as I am with the other 2.

None of thses are game breakers, and of course you can use some current attribute/skill to cover whatever is needed, but I for one think it would be better if these things had a stat of their own. Again, just a matter of opinion, there is no right or wrong here.

 

[rust]

Intelligence to evaluate data to determine what to do with it makes sense, but the raw ability to see/hear something has nothing to do with intelligence.

The problem is, if you decide to use the raw ability to see / hear some-
thing in your game, and the player characters have different degrees
of that ability, you have to give different descriptions of the same situa-
tion to different players - the ones with the player characters with better
senses receiving more informations.

"Phil and Jack, your characters can see some old footprints, the cha-
racters of Peter and John cannot see them. Michael, your character
is the only one who can hear the sound of a distant grav car engine.
Oh, and Jack's character can smell a trace of perfume, which all the
other characters cannot smell."

 

[FreeTrav]

The problem is, if you decide to use the raw ability to see / hear something in your game, and the player characters have different degrees of that ability, you have to give different descriptions of the same situation to different players - the ones with the player characters with better senses receiving more informations.

Except for the metalogistics - i.e., the logistics of you as referee running the game - why is this a problem? It reflects what would happen in reality, after all.

"Phil and Jack, your characters can see some old footprints, the characters of Peter and John cannot see them. Michael, your character is the only one who can hear the sound of a distant grav car engine. Oh, and Jack's character can smell a trace of perfume, which all the other characters cannot smell."

Yes, and? If I were doing this, I'd actually do it in writing, describing verbally what all of the characters see, and then handing out notes to the characters that perceive more:

"There is a stone path here, edged with long grass." (John's note: 'You can see that the grass is trampled to the left of the path'. Sharon's note: 'You can see that at least two people were running along the left side of the path toward the house, and then swung off toward the garage'. Steve's note: You hear an aircar's grav generator spin up, off to the left behind the house'. Jerry's note: 'It smells like someone wearing cologne passed through the area. And he was smoking particularly bad taba-weed at the time'.)

 

[CosmicGamer]

This has been discussed before. Check these links out.
Spotting things
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40325&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=recon+investigate
Skills for perception?
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=37139&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=recon+investigate

I'll repeat myself because I still strongly believe the following

A cleverly crafted important clue that is key to progressing the story line being left up to random dice rolls can be risky. So can leaving it up to the players. That pad of paper that someone was supposed to rub with a pencil to see what was written last may be overlooked.

EDIT:

I am in the same boat when it comes to will and charisma rolls. I think both should be represented somehow, and yet like perception, they are not.

The rules allow for the addition of characteristics (Core Book pg 40). In one game the GM added a perception skill.

 

[rust]

Yes, and? If I were doing this, I'd actually do it in writing, describing verbally what all of the characters see, and then handing out notes to the characters that perceive more ...

This is fine for a prepared, well structured adventure, but a terrible pain
in the neck for a sandbox style game, where you do not know in advan-
ce where the characters will go - you would spend most of the gaming
time writing notes, with the players discussing last night's movie until
you are ready to continue the game. :wink:

 

[BP]

Yes, I've heard all that before, and it is fine if you are happy with it that way, I on the other hand am not. It is a matter of taste/opinion.

Indeed - and my tastes actually run along the same lines - was just pointing out the work arounds

Personnally, I've always felt Social Standing was more settings specific and generally used it more as a type of Charisma - regardless of the name. To me, Social Standing is something you inherit, buy or earn - charisma mostly affects the later. Just having a high Social Standing doesn't imply charm, people, or negotiations skills to me (quite the contrary in many situations). And for aliens which have no social structure or a simple caste structure - SOC makes no sense. IMTU I fixed this by simply ignoring the title business. Then it basically becomes Social Ability/Charisma.

Its great that MGT is providing alternate settings - but some parts of the core books still bow to the 3I setting. I was somewhat disappointed that MGT kept the Social Standing naming convention.

It would be nice if END was split to account for mental and physical seperately. For humans I don't have a problem with it - consider it just a simplification. But for species - and especially robots - it would have been more desirable to have seperate characteristics. I always felt CT had 6 characteristics because of the D6 nature .

Of course, adding/changing characteristics is an option regardless of what the rules say, but that doesn't help when game mechancis have to be changed and off the shelf material customized...

 

[BP]

The problem is, if you decide to use the raw ability to see / hear some-thing in your game, and the player characters have different degrees of that ability, you have to give different descriptions of the same situa-tion to different players - the ones with the player characters with better senses receiving more informations.

Whether this is a problem depends more on style of play...

If its info that a player might decide to keep to themselves - or only they can act upon - then I took the player to the side/or whispered across that info. True - this raises speculation - though we never had a problem - since this was standard practice to do with other things... just had to make sure it was kept short.

For most things - which a player would point out/have the opportunity to do so - "Phill and Jack see something; Michael hears something; Jack smells something" (using character names not players in my case) - then the players would ask what to each item in their own priority.

I.e. - they may be more interested in what is seen first (3 of the 4 say, or Jack speaking up first) - sometimes this led to hasty decisions - other times indecision - all mimicking the RW where one person might hear something and yell duck - while another might have sensed that the alarm is false/wrong - but not reacted in time to their better judgement.

Most of the time this isn't relevant when the first check succeeds - just tell the group - 'Jack picks up a trail...' or whisper/confide to Jack.

 

[rust]

We have changed SOC into INF (= Influence), which is part status, part
charisma and part the result of the player character's activities.

A character who is successful (in public, this is) can raise his INF, some-
one who causes a lot of desasters (again, in public) reduces his influence,
and influence can also be changed by good or bad rumours and thelike.

The modifier it gives depends on the location (e.g. more on the home-
world, less farther away) and on the person or group the character at-
tempts to influence (e.g. a scientist finds it easier to influence other sci-
entists than to influence politicians).

 

[FreeTrav]

We have changed SOC into INF (= Influence), which is part status, part
charisma and part the result of the player character's activities.

A character who is successful (in public, this is) can raise his INF, some-
one who causes a lot of desasters (again, in public) reduces his influence,
and influence can also be changed by good or bad rumours and thelike.

The modifier it gives depends on the location (e.g. more on the home-
world, less farther away) and on the person or group the character at-
tempts to influence (e.g. a scientist finds it easier to influence other sci-
entists than to influence politicians).

Would you be willing to write this up in more detail and send it to Freelance Traveller? I recognize that you have concerns about your fluency - or at least your comfort level - in English, but judging from your posts here, I don't believe you have any real reason for those concerns.

 

[rust]

Would you be willing to write this up in more detail and send it to Freelance Traveller?

Only if I am hit by a writer's block while working on my Call of Cthulhu
setting, I am afraid. Sorry, but I am currently deep into the other stuff,
and - language problems aside - would not like to "change horses".

 

[BP]

...Only if I am hit by a writer's block ...

Say - always wondered how big a writer's block is and were does one buy 'em?