Spot Checks

[Supplement Four]

I'm curious how other GMs run Spot Checks.

Let's say the party is travelling from Arenjun to Shadizar. That's a long way. Some bandits use boulders and shrubs for cover, but if the PCs pass a DC 15 spot check, they will notice an upturned rock and the impression of a boot heel in the rocky soil. This will tip them off that they are about to be ambushed.

So, how would you GM this?

Your players leave Arenjun. You secretly roll Spot Checks for all of them? Or, one roll for the entire party using the best Spot Check number? Or, only do it if the players say they are checking the group and trying to stay aware during the trip?

Or...would you make them roll Spot Checks ever so often?

How would you run this?

 

[Malcadon]

If you are making a Spot Check, then each player should roll for their own character. If you dont want to tip them off, then you can roll for each character secretly from behind the GM screen.

If they are not actively searching their surrounding, then you can make a secret Spot Check for each character once they enter an area that would have something there. Such a check might have a higher DC then normal, as they are likely focused on whats on the horizon. If the GM wishes, they may automatically fail to see anything, anyhow. (Sometimes a GM would make secret rolls for no reason, just to keep the players on their toes :wink

If they are actively searching their surrounding, then they can each make a Spot Check in the area that they are in. Such checks would be at normal DCs, and are rolled openly. Even if their is nothing to be found, they still have to roll.

 

[Paladin]

Exactly what Malcadon said.

 

[kintire]

(Sometimes a GM would make secret rolls for no reason, just to keep the players on their toes )

Casually rolling a dice in secret, suddenly looking interestedly at it, then continuing the game with a slight smirk is a vital GM skill.

 

[maladaar]

Casually rolling a dice in secret, suddenly looking interestedly at it, then continuing the game with a slight smirk is a vital GM skill.

Reminds me of the story I heard about a GM that had a single fly buzzing around the group (in a D&D campaign). The PCs started to get paranoid and actively tried to kill the fly thinking that if the GM took the time to mention the fact that a fly kept buzzing around there must be something more sinister to it.

Turns out that the fly was a normal fly, but it brought the PCs to the brink of paranoia.

 

[Edhel]

IME it's much easier to assume 'take 10' for player characters' Spot unless they have stated that they are looking out for ambushers. That sets the DC for the bandits' hide checks.

On the other hand, if characters are walking in to the ambush, I think most players would rather throw their Spot checks against the 'take 10' Hide of the bandits. If the bandits have at least 5 ranks in hide/move silently, they get +5 bonus to hide from some random maneuver (it's in one of the F series books). I'd also give bonuses to the bandits if they had had time to prepare for the ambush.

.: edhel, hiding in plain sight

P.S. Don't get me started on spot/listen/hide/move silently instead of perception/stealth...

 

[Supplement Four]

IME it's much easier to assume 'take 10' for player characters' Spot unless they have stated that they are looking out for ambushers. That sets the DC for the bandits' hide checks.

Ohhh, good comment! Thanks!

Assume Take 10 unless the player specifically calls for a check. I like it. Nice, simple, easy to implement.

 

[Sutek]

I do the opposite of what he said, but I guess it nearly amounts tothe same thing.

I figure out where the bandits (or whatever) is hiding and how they're doing it, and then I roll Hide checks for them at each potential ambush site. Right...Hide before Spot? So, anyway, if the players don't have someone announce that they are scanning the treeline, watching the road ahead, scouting in advance of the party, etc., then I will wait until the ambush can be sprung and make them roll immediate Spot checks at the ambush site. Passing means they are surprised by the ambush, but can react after the surprise round normally, getting ready to respond to the combat. If they fail, they have to make a move action after the surprise round...they're totally oblivious and effectively lose two turns.

Believe me, I did this very few times before they decided to be more cautious.

If they are scouting/scanning/etc., then they can roll thier Spot as they near the area, DC is the ambusher's Hide checks results. They won't spot the actual guys unless they roll DC+10, but they instead Spot signs of the ambush and can gear up and act accordingly.

 

[Supplement Four]

The reason I'm asking is that I'm running Black Stones of Kovag-Re as my first adventure, and I was curious about how to run the traps.

I'm trying to be vague because one of my players lurks in here from time to time.

 

[Tpatrickrooney]

I LOVE the old anonymous die roll with a slight smirk trick ohhh the fun it is to see people suddenly go nuts trying spot and listen checks.


speaking of that.

I am running a campaign based around Shadizar so I am using alot of the NPC's from those three books in the box set as base for the encounters and as such i noticed something that I have not found reference to here on the forum and wondered if anyone else had noticed this as well.

in the dark dens of iniquity on page 17 are stats for a typical royal guard and a captain of the royal palace guards as well.

check out their stats neither have a spot or listen skill at all other then the racial +1 in urban settings. kinda hard to defend your royal charges if your not checking for danger and or listening for the stealthy padding of thieves and assassins, don't you think??

is there an errata for the shadizar set I could not find one so forgive me if i overlooked it.

 

[Tpatrickrooney]

bump in hopes of an answer

 

[Majestic7]

Spot and Listen are not class skills for Soldiers. That is your answer. So all guardsmen who do not have multiple classes - or are Hyborian and have taken Spot & Listen as their adaptability skills - are blind and deaf.

 

[Tpatrickrooney]

Spot and Listen are not class skills for Soldiers. That is your answer. So all guardsmen who do not have multiple classes - or are Hyborian and have taken Spot & Listen as their adaptability skills - are blind and deaf.

i wouldn't think it would matter, spot and listen are important enough to double sink point in just to have them... imho...

especially if the lives of the royal family are in your hands.. hahaha

EDIT:

however saying that it occurs to me that stealing stuff and assassinations in the royal palace just got that easier.

~~

perhaps a palace guard prestige class is in order with spot and listen becoming class skills.

 

[Majestic7]

i wouldn't think it would matter, spot and listen are important enough to double sink point in just to have them... imho...

.

Soldiers only get two skill points per level if they don't have a positive intelligence modifier. That means one rank in either spot or listen per level, while Thieves get eight skill points per level. No hope in keeping up with the progression of the same level thieves and their sneaking ability.

If you really want to fix it, turn Spot & Listen in to class skills for Soldiers and/or increase their skill points. Optionally, marry them together in to Perception and have guards take Perception as extra class skill with a feat. (I don't remember if there is a such feat in Conan rules, but if there is not, there should be.)

Having guard dogs and other animals would be a good, realistic idea too. They have much better senses than the average guard - especially as they have Scent, against which no sneaking check is enough.

 

[Tpatrickrooney]

i wouldn't think it would matter, spot and listen are important enough to double sink point in just to have them... imho...

.

Soldiers only get two skill points per level if they don't have a positive intelligence modifier. That means one rank in either spot or listen per level, while Thieves get eight skill points per level. No hope in keeping up with the progression of the same level thieves and their sneaking ability.

If you really want to fix it, turn Spot & Listen in to class skills for Soldiers and/or increase their skill points. Optionally, marry them together in to Perception and have guards take Perception as extra class skill with a feat. (I don't remember if there is a such feat in Conan rules, but if there is not, there should be.)

Having guard dogs and other animals would be a good, realistic idea too. They have much better senses than the average guard - especially as they have Scent, against which no sneaking check is enough.

good call guard dogs it is. and prolly make spot and listen class skill too just in case.

 

[kintire]

Soldiers only get two skill points per level if they don't have a positive intelligence modifier. That means one rank in either spot or listen per level, while Thieves get eight skill points per level. No hope in keeping up with the progression of the same level thieves and their sneaking ability.

Which is exactly right. Superiority in the vital skills needed is the Thief classes raison d'etre. Take that away, and why play a thief? Not to mention that sneaking into most places will require several contests against several guards. If the thief doesn't have a reasonable advantage, sneaking just won't work.

If you are seriously concerned about your lack of skill points, take a few levels in a class that gives it to you. Remember, Conan explicitly assumes that you will multiclass, covering the weaknesses of one class with another who is strong there. If you take one class to 20 you will be limited. Highly effective in your field, but weak outside it. that is as it should be.

 

[Majestic7]

Which is exactly right. Superiority in the vital skills needed is the Thief classes raison d'etre. Take that away, and why play a thief? Not to mention that sneaking into most places will require several contests against several guards. If the thief doesn't have a reasonable advantage, sneaking just won't work.

If you are seriously concerned about your lack of skill points, take a few levels in a class that gives it to you. Remember, Conan explicitly assumes that you will multiclass, covering the weaknesses of one class with another who is strong there. If you take one class to 20 you will be limited. Highly effective in your field, but weak outside it. that is as it should be.

Player characters were not the point, but rather that city watchmen and even royal guards are blind and deaf. Sure, if you don't mind the fact, then it is okay - it just decreases the average lifespan of nobility somewhat, heh. Their guards are after all RAW pure Soldiers. (In Acheronian Edition, I'd solve this by having them be Soldier who have taken Perception as a class skill with a feat.)

 

[kintire]

Player characters were not the point, but rather that city watchmen and even royal guards are blind and deaf. Sure, if you don't mind the fact, then it is okay - it just decreases the average lifespan of nobility somewhat, heh. Their guards are after all RAW pure Soldiers.

They are not "blind and deaf". they are not capable of spotting a skilled thief unless they are lucky. Which in the case of senior nobility they probably will be: An assassin will have to sneak past many guards before they reach their target!

In any case, who says they are pure soldiers? I don't see any line in the RAW which says that all guards must be soldiers.

 

[Krushnak]

Also Hyborian guards get a nifty bonus of both spot and listen being available as class skills at a +2 bonus!

Alongside there being lots of guards and dogs the palace interior and grounds would likely be pretty well lit making it hard for those theives and assassins to sneak around.

 

[Majestic7]

All NPC guards in supplements are pure Soldiers, unless I'm badly mistaken. (Messantia & Shadizar books etc.) Luck isn't enough for them to see a sneaking thief. Natural 20 in a skill check is not automatic success, unlike in attack rolls and saves. So if the sneaking foes have stealth skills that are high enough, it is likely that they will never be spotted. Heh, but it just proves once more that you shouldn't trouble your head thinking about D20-based games from a simulationistic point of view, that they provided any hint at how the game world works.

Yeah, I'd throw in a lot of guard dogs - it is both realistic and effective. Hyborian Competence bonus helps somewhat - and having a feat to buy new class skills is useful too.