Spinal Weapons - February Update

[AnotherDilbert]

If we like to make things complicated we could note that spinals are fixed mounts that can only fire directly ahead (or rear).
Consequently we cannot use the spinal is we are accelerating away from the enemy.
This might add to the tactics of selecting range.

 

[phavoc]

If we like to make things complicated we could note that spinals are fixed mounts that can only fire directly ahead (or rear).
Consequently we cannot use the spinal is we are accelerating away from the enemy.
This might add to the tactics of selecting range.

Heathen! Who says a 200,000 Dton battleship can't accelerate, flip, target and fire it's spinal weapon at pursuers, flip and then begin accelerating again, all in 6 minutes and with no overall loss of acceleration over those chasing it who AREN'T doing that! You should be ashamed of yourself for injecting common sense into such an abstract rule!

 

[Chas]

I think your logic is entirely correct.

To degrade 3500 meson damage would require 125 screens at 1250 dT (& MCr2500) [assuming 8+ and Gunner+5]. That sounds very good, but the screen can only stop one attack. You use the screens as a reaction before the attack roll, so roughly half the time the screens are wasted on a miss. Meson screens are economically marginal against mesons, and worthless against other weapons.

I think you are on the right track, but you boost the mesons a bit to much, remember that the particles are do less damage / dT at higher TL because of armour. If we boost screens you are in the right ballpark.

Screens also get better over TL with their advantages so I'm hoping this will compensate for the particle decline as well and we will be pretty much on the money right from the get go with our current setup. But that'll depend on the final rules for screens.

I like the suggested power increase of the base 2DD, 4DD, 6DD... for mesons because it's clean and easy.

So what would be the best build for a meson screen in this configuration? Perhaps we can offer the complete package to Matt, as screens are only going to be used against Meson spinals anyhoo...

[So, to go with your suggestion (as I have seen already suggested on this board):
Allow screens to be used several times per round by using more power and gunners. Each use requires a few gunners and the base amount of power.
This will boost the effectiveness of larger spinals, and hence larger ships.

Or we could use the software solution that Matt initially proposed. The optimize screens. This basically allows the screens to be used multiple times, it's only burning power points.

If we did that and then allowed that to work only on hits, it would be a lot cleaner. Having to use screens before the actual hit roll is a pain.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Or we could use the software solution that Matt initially proposed. The optimize screens. This basically allows the screens to be used multiple times, it's only burning power points.

Optimise Screens has no skill involved, so instead of 2D+5 (average effect ~4) it has 2D+0 (average effect ~0.5), so will deflect next to no damage.

 

[Chas]

Or we could use the software solution that Matt initially proposed. The optimize screens. This basically allows the screens to be used multiple times, it's only burning power points.

Optimise Screens has no skill involved, so instead of 2D+5 (average effect ~4) it has 2D+0 (average effect ~0.5), so will deflect next to no damage.

Yeah, that goes back to the fact you need a really good screen operator to work the 'angle screens' properly. I think this needs a rework to whatever we think ought to be the right balance... and then let's rejig the mechanism to suit :lol:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yeah, that goes back to the fact you need a really good screen operator to work the 'angle screens' properly.

I don't have any problem with that...

The problem might be that ubiquitous augmentation makes skills very high. +5 as a generic modifier on a 2D roll is problematically high.
If we take a regular Joe with skill-2 and no characteristic DM the combat system looks very different.

 

[Chas]

A revised structure as a kick off point:

Overdrive: A spinal weapon can increase its effective range to Very Long by the use of High Efficiency Batteries (see page XXX) holding the same power as the spinal weapon uses. This can only be used every other round due to the overloading risks.

Optional rules for consideration:
1) At 4DD damage a spinal imposes a -1 on dodge for the target that increases a further -1 for each +2DD of damage due to the immense blast of weapon.
2) TL +1 Maximum Size increases by +1 base weight.
3) Minimum size for a spinal weapon = 2DD

In this circumstance how about we give the Optimize Screens software a +4 effective screen skill? If we assume the meson damage above is about right, how should we best manage the screens? The table there has both function application in ship design and the requested distance between the spinal types and if Matt likes this, we just need to tweak the screens to make a workable system.

Edit: on review I may have over shot the increased meson improvement/tonnage, depending on how well the screen tech advances work. But we want the screens sorted before finalizing. To get this right we shouldn't be working the screens and meson spinal in isolation.

 

[phavoc]

Keep in mind at the ranges you are talking about, with lights peed weapons, the target isn't going to be where it used to be. Your sensors are light speed, so it takes a second to get the data, then you have to aim your ship, and the fire. Long range fire with a spinal at a target that is trying to avoid getting hit should be iffy. Now targets like stations don't get that advantage. They are just targets waiting to be shot.

Also the idea of angling screens against an incoming attack just doesn't make sense. The best you can hope to do is angle your screens towards a general direction where there is an enemy. If you have one screen and an enemy above and below, you would have to guess which enemy is going to be firing and hope your screen affects the incoming fire. But only a psychic would know ahead of a light speed weapon attack in order to put a screen between it and their ship.

It still sounds less hokey to have screens work without an operator trying to deflect incoming fire. I know everyone is looking to replay Star Wars where you angle your defelctors, but even then the shields just put more strength in a direction, they didn't do anything else. And as we saw from the millenuim falcon scene, the tie fighters pretty much just hit the Falcon anyway, when they didn't outright miss.

 

[Chas]

Matt has suggested he wants two mechanisms, a shield like angle screens, and then something more like a field, the latter and what you've stated would be my preference as well. Just make this mechanism a flat power point burn limited by the number of screens you include or otherwise. We want simple maths here, so much ppts available to be used from the tonnage of screen available is reduced from a total, when all the screen power is done the mesons continue at full damage. (With say a Star Trek-like all power to the screens to say divert more protection to the screens at particularly disadvantageous rates)

 

[phavoc]

Matt has suggested he wants two mechanisms, a shield like angle screens, and then something more like a field, the latter and what you've stated would be my preference as well. Just make this mechanism a flat power point burn limited by the number of screens you include or otherwise. We want simple maths here, so much ppts available to be used from the tonnage of screen available is reduced from a total, when all the screen power is done the mesons continue at full damage. (With say a Star Trek-like all power to the screens to say divert more protection to the screens at particularly disadvantageous rates)

Yeah, he mentioned the angle defletors as being 'core' and the 'shield' concept in the high tech chapter.

 

[Chas]

Matt has suggested he wants two mechanisms, a shield like angle screens, and then something more like a field, the latter and what you've stated would be my preference as well. Just make this mechanism a flat power point burn limited by the number of screens you include or otherwise. We want simple maths here, so much ppts available to be used from the tonnage of screen available is reduced from a total, when all the screen power is done the mesons continue at full damage. (With say a Star Trek-like all power to the screens to say divert more protection to the screens at particularly disadvantageous rates)

Yeah, he mentioned the angle defletors as being 'core' and the 'shield' concept in the high tech chapter.

Just seen the actual note in the updated update

Shields
Many universes feature ships capable of generating
shields that deflect or absorb damage. These are covered
in the High Technology chapter.

I'd prefer this to be official or the angles screen redone so at least its worked on actual hits and workable average effect, not potential hits before the attack roll is made.

 

[phavoc]

It definitely should be about damage reduction only, not avoiding the hit. That's a little squirrelly in my book. Especially since we are trying to dance around the concept of them NOT being shields.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A revised structure as a kick off point:

Chas' suggestion is entirely workable.

I might change the TL progression. Since we have increased the base damage of the mesons they do not need better TL progression than the other spinals. The other spinals are already degraded by higher armour at higher TL.

Give them all the same TL progression at -5% or -10% per TL.

 

[Nerhesi]

A revised structure as a kick off point:

Chas' suggestion is entirely workable.

I might change the TL progression. Since we have increased the base damage of the mesons they do not need better TL progression than the other spinals. The other spinals are already degraded by higher armour at higher TL.

Give them all the same TL progression at -5% or -10% per TL.

It previously was but Phavoc triumphed and convinced Matt it should be 5% Ive made my peace with that aspect.

I do believe however we should be looking at Meson damage to improving it now - the easiest way would be by lowering the weight on it significantly - or perhaps makings the base and step calculation for damage 2DD?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... or perhaps makings the base and step calculation for damage 2DD?

That is the basic change in Chas' suggestion.

 

[Nerhesi]

... or perhaps makings the base and step calculation for damage 2DD?

That is the basic change in Chas' suggestion.

Merci

 

[phavoc]

It previously was but Phavoc triumphed and convinced Matt it should be 5% Ive made my peace with that aspect.

I do believe however we should be looking at Meson damage to improving it now - the easiest way would be by lowering the weight on it significantly - or perhaps makings the base and step calculation for damage 2DD?

A rare win! But seriously, I don't think capital-class weapon systems should be able to get TOO dainty. I want spinal mounts to consume the requisite space required to one-shot a ship.

 

[Chas]

A revised structure as a kick off point:

Chas' suggestion is entirely workable.

I might change the TL progression. Since we have increased the base damage of the mesons they do not need better TL progression than the other spinals. The other spinals are already degraded by higher armour at higher TL.

Give them all the same TL progression at -5% or -10% per TL.

I'd agree and said as much in the post, but I'd like to see the effect of the TL advantages on screens. They can get either big weight reduction or big power efficiency reduction and want to be sure we're not crippling mesons at TL14/15.