teamescape
Mongoose
And their purpose is to NOT be cost effective? :wink:
Spider Bug Model
- Thread starter Gauntlet-
- Start date
Bugs have 'solutions to every problem' down pat. It's just their solutions are often times very specific to the problem in question. And rarely useful beyond that problem in major ways... Using just one type of specialist bug is unlikely to be particularly good. Just like if you were to play an MI list involving, say, nothing but Triple-thuds for weapon options it'd probably go south fairly fast on you. You'd have very little chances of taking o ut something like tankers or air-bugs at all.
I think the model is fantastic, one of my favourite bug models. I won't be buying any though because of the real world cost. £20 for three cool-looking models that will die in the first turn.
I can see it now. Right! All lined up. Got my Plasmas at the back. Got my tankers underground. Got my Brain hidden somewhere. Got that bunch of warriors ready to rush forward. Got these excellent spiders.
So, the MI fire first because of their SciCon training. Oh, they've killed my three spider again. I'll now be able to move these cool models back into my travel case. Hmmm.
I can see it now. Right! All lined up. Got my Plasmas at the back. Got my tankers underground. Got my Brain hidden somewhere. Got that bunch of warriors ready to rush forward. Got these excellent spiders.
So, the MI fire first because of their SciCon training. Oh, they've killed my three spider again. I'll now be able to move these cool models back into my travel case. Hmmm.
SickBunny
Mongoose
I have to disagree with some of the comments 'ere... As usual... :lol:
I feel that the Spider Bugs Are actually well represented as seen from the show... you have to remember that the reason why this Spider seemed to totally destroy everything was that it only attacked a trooper at a time... From an ambushing position... Try that out for a scenario... put the battle into a thick jungle with no firing lanes, put the troopers into the LIGHTER format of the powerarmor and have one-on-ones against a single Spider Bug... you'll see every trooper dead(captured)... Even when Rico and T'phai were chasing the damn thing, it was just two troopers... once again, in terrain that the Spider Bug was perfectly designed to use... Spiders, just as many other subbreeds of the Arachnids excell in limited areas...as they are designed to do... try Spiders in an cityfight or thick jungle... and you'll see your endresults... if you run them at the enemy over open ground without support... well... they are going to die...
And I kinda like the models... though yes, the arachnids do NOT appear a single race, they do make a rather convincing entire artificially designed ecosystem as they are... if you want your buggiearmy to match, just do it with paintschemes... works wonders, I can tell you...
I feel that the Spider Bugs Are actually well represented as seen from the show... you have to remember that the reason why this Spider seemed to totally destroy everything was that it only attacked a trooper at a time... From an ambushing position... Try that out for a scenario... put the battle into a thick jungle with no firing lanes, put the troopers into the LIGHTER format of the powerarmor and have one-on-ones against a single Spider Bug... you'll see every trooper dead(captured)... Even when Rico and T'phai were chasing the damn thing, it was just two troopers... once again, in terrain that the Spider Bug was perfectly designed to use... Spiders, just as many other subbreeds of the Arachnids excell in limited areas...as they are designed to do... try Spiders in an cityfight or thick jungle... and you'll see your endresults... if you run them at the enemy over open ground without support... well... they are going to die...
And I kinda like the models... though yes, the arachnids do NOT appear a single race, they do make a rather convincing entire artificially designed ecosystem as they are... if you want your buggiearmy to match, just do it with paintschemes... works wonders, I can tell you...
You're missing my point. Yes, bugs would develope specialized species, each with it's own area of focus, but there's a huge amount of redundancy in the Arachnid army. As far as Gaurd bugs go, you'll probably be dissapointed. I used 'em (in proxie form) multiple times, and found that in the long run two wounds is just no substitute for the Hoppers hover.
I'd also add that the Infiltrator (regardless of how cool it is) is also a gimmick bug. It'll work once and then never again!
Ditto for the control bugs.
Tiger Warriors could arguably be lumped into that catagory as well.
Add that to Gauntlet's list, and you don't have much left.
I'd also add that the Infiltrator (regardless of how cool it is) is also a gimmick bug. It'll work once and then never again!
Ditto for the control bugs.
Tiger Warriors could arguably be lumped into that catagory as well.
Add that to Gauntlet's list, and you don't have much left.
MaxSteiner
Mongoose
Hey don't dis' the tiger bugs man 
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
infiltrators only working once?
If you have first turn, place a tunnel exit marker under an MI model you want dead, place the infiltrator 12" away, assasinate the target with the brain.
Move to 6.5", reveal, extra (brain) move then charge. Kill every time, the infiltrator is now standing in size four cover and the MI will have to jump to get him..... so they have to ready, so the infiltrator can react and will get another one.
You can't stop that as an MI player, other than surrounding your command models (then you get plasma'd).
And remember MI can't jump to 6" then shoot him as part of the same action (rulesmasters). Infiltrator is pretty good. Even if he is taken out in turn one, it holds up a whole set of actions for a unit. Worth it just for that.
If you have first turn, place a tunnel exit marker under an MI model you want dead, place the infiltrator 12" away, assasinate the target with the brain.
Move to 6.5", reveal, extra (brain) move then charge. Kill every time, the infiltrator is now standing in size four cover and the MI will have to jump to get him..... so they have to ready, so the infiltrator can react and will get another one.
You can't stop that as an MI player, other than surrounding your command models (then you get plasma'd).
And remember MI can't jump to 6" then shoot him as part of the same action (rulesmasters). Infiltrator is pretty good. Even if he is taken out in turn one, it holds up a whole set of actions for a unit. Worth it just for that.
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
I like that the bugs are specialized I do, however there is a difference between specialized and specialty. the spider bug is specialized for close combat and jumping, however. Its specialty is what?
It cant jump an effective distance, and its role is the same as warriors- to close with the enemy, its 2 warriors in one package costs the same has the same attacks. But its easier to kill so you can have an ineffective jump.
I prefer when bugs have a different role not a gimmicky trait.
IE- We have warriors for frontline troops
Tankers to break formations and a variant tanker to break bunkers
Plasma is our artillary- Brains is as well when you think about it what with Ego-War and Rupture... as well as command.
We have are fast attack thats hoppers-
and we have a anti-aircraft bug- the rippler
the fire fry, is the best of a group for assault bugs, such as blister/blaster and regular ripplers... fairly mobile, with ranged attacks...within this role we have subroles- if you need one that can cover alot of terrain you have ripplers, if you need alot of range, you have blasters, if you need a good mainstay mix you get Fire Frys.... Blisters... are arguably the same role as a fire fry but worse at it... very similar attack, and similar range- Move 6 attack 12 =18 inchs, or FireFry Move 12 attack 9 = 21 inches... so 3 inches of range equals a piercing trait? and what the slight bonus in armor is 10 points?
thank you but no, ill take my cost effective Fries every time.
several species have a role, but are not effective versus the cost, others serve no role, the spider is one such case, if you need to kill opponents on top of a wall... you dont need close combat you have numerous flying and better jumping bugs thatll be able to do the job much better by avoiding causing that first reaction- in order for a spider attack to be successful with a jump or charge itll be within reaction range, thus several if not possibly ALL will die before doing anything... or I can have a cheaper bug simply go with out triggering that first reaction and get their attacks.
You could fix it by making certain bugs lesss in points, or by giving them a better role.
For example, the blister would be much better if it could say ... tunnel 6, IE it uses its acid to tunnel ... it would then form a new ranged assault role that isnt already covered- similar to a tankers role, but certainly not so similar to say a fire frys.
As for the spider I think it could be much more useful if it did something more than a warriors job, but not as good! It needs a special rule or weapon other than- more points at the end if i actually kill anyone...
It cant jump an effective distance, and its role is the same as warriors- to close with the enemy, its 2 warriors in one package costs the same has the same attacks. But its easier to kill so you can have an ineffective jump.
I prefer when bugs have a different role not a gimmicky trait.
IE- We have warriors for frontline troops
Tankers to break formations and a variant tanker to break bunkers
Plasma is our artillary- Brains is as well when you think about it what with Ego-War and Rupture... as well as command.
We have are fast attack thats hoppers-
and we have a anti-aircraft bug- the rippler
the fire fry, is the best of a group for assault bugs, such as blister/blaster and regular ripplers... fairly mobile, with ranged attacks...within this role we have subroles- if you need one that can cover alot of terrain you have ripplers, if you need alot of range, you have blasters, if you need a good mainstay mix you get Fire Frys.... Blisters... are arguably the same role as a fire fry but worse at it... very similar attack, and similar range- Move 6 attack 12 =18 inchs, or FireFry Move 12 attack 9 = 21 inches... so 3 inches of range equals a piercing trait? and what the slight bonus in armor is 10 points?
thank you but no, ill take my cost effective Fries every time.
several species have a role, but are not effective versus the cost, others serve no role, the spider is one such case, if you need to kill opponents on top of a wall... you dont need close combat you have numerous flying and better jumping bugs thatll be able to do the job much better by avoiding causing that first reaction- in order for a spider attack to be successful with a jump or charge itll be within reaction range, thus several if not possibly ALL will die before doing anything... or I can have a cheaper bug simply go with out triggering that first reaction and get their attacks.
You could fix it by making certain bugs lesss in points, or by giving them a better role.
For example, the blister would be much better if it could say ... tunnel 6, IE it uses its acid to tunnel ... it would then form a new ranged assault role that isnt already covered- similar to a tankers role, but certainly not so similar to say a fire frys.
As for the spider I think it could be much more useful if it did something more than a warriors job, but not as good! It needs a special rule or weapon other than- more points at the end if i actually kill anyone...
Sounds like the best route to go for for Spiders would be changing them to Jump 10" or something. They're still fragile, but they can go from out of reaction range to melee range in a single move. Very nasty, but anyone they fail to kill is gonna chew on them like cheap bubble gum. Especially thanks to the +1 to hit them when jumping. Really they strike me as a unit which is best suited to coming over impassable terrain at the enemy. Preferably terrain they can hide in before doing their thing. Start out 8" from the enemy, ready, jump. Inside S2+ terrain the enemy can't fire on them at all... And while the MI can choose to beat feet, they're then left with no reaction ability at all for the rest of the turn (Sounds like a score to me!) They'd be nice, I'd think, with a move-read-(coordinate) jump attack. Covers a good 14" worth of board, 16" attack range. But yes. They seem to overlap heavily with the Warriors and probably aren't as cost-effective due to the lack of survivability.
Gauntlet, you make some good points there. That's something to think about.
Jose: The only problem with your tactic there is that once the Infiltrator reveals itself to kill that model the MI can attack it like any other bug, so (at least against the MI players I face), it wouldn't matter that he was getting cover from that entrance, as it would be completely fragged half way through his turn. I could be missunderstanding what you're saying, but really, once the Infiltrator reveals itself it's game on!
Jose: The only problem with your tactic there is that once the Infiltrator reveals itself to kill that model the MI can attack it like any other bug, so (at least against the MI players I face), it wouldn't matter that he was getting cover from that entrance, as it would be completely fragged half way through his turn. I could be missunderstanding what you're saying, but really, once the Infiltrator reveals itself it's game on!
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
you could extend its jump in which case the unit might be passing, honestly Id increase jump to 12 and maybe give it more piercing... I dunno Im not a doctor... I do no that a unit that is only passing SHouldnt Be a Unit.
a unit doesnt neccessarily have to be cost effecient mind you, which is the other simply solution reduce its current cost to 20 and itd be a huge help something to offset the fact that it is indeed inferior to 2 warriors... maybe 25 would be fine...
but a unit doesnt have to be cost effective if it 'unique' if it performs a ROLE that is not performed by any other unit, or in that particular way, then it becomes valauble anyways, I dont think that Blaster Bugs are cost effecient but hey are USEFUL, because they fill the Longest Range aside from mega artillary, that the bugs have its unique and if you desire that role in your army youll pay the points. and generally some units cant be cost effecient because your army needs to have certain weaknesses, thats Macro-Balancing
SO if you made a Spider Cost effective with its current stats what role would it fill? the same one as a warrior, but weaker and slightly more mobile, it equals out it doesnt matter which you pick other than which you prefer... IF there is no difference between them... One shouldnt exist.
The major role I see the spider filling nicely, is short-medium range 'Disruption' something like what a Brain Bugs Ego War can get you, but not quite as good,
a Brain's Ego War is great, and has little risk initially as its 36 inch range... but you are risking that the brain will be caught in LOS and out in the open, and its a 300 point asset... the greatness is offset.
If say the spider had a ranged attack that was bad, did no Real Dammage, but prevented a squad from moving of any form until the unit Readies, or Prevents the NEXT reaction (but not all) or Spoils ready status, or any combination thereof, it would offer an alternative in a similar role, DISTRIBUTED Risk for a worse ability, and it would anchor the unit not as a main line replacement for a warrior, but as a support unit, something that disables an enemy unit to a degree, allowing warriors to move in, and this lets your brain be free for more important duties,
Or Hey dont like that? maybe the overseer fills that role too nicely?
Howabout we let the damn things be deployed with Ambush? 0-1 squad of them at PL3 or deployed like the enw independent snipers are, must be revealed by end of round 3, or lock them to say a terrain piece, but hidden... spiders strike me as a sneaky surprise unit and that would make having one big unit VERY viable. that would be new....
ok im done ranting...
a unit doesnt neccessarily have to be cost effecient mind you, which is the other simply solution reduce its current cost to 20 and itd be a huge help something to offset the fact that it is indeed inferior to 2 warriors... maybe 25 would be fine...
but a unit doesnt have to be cost effective if it 'unique' if it performs a ROLE that is not performed by any other unit, or in that particular way, then it becomes valauble anyways, I dont think that Blaster Bugs are cost effecient but hey are USEFUL, because they fill the Longest Range aside from mega artillary, that the bugs have its unique and if you desire that role in your army youll pay the points. and generally some units cant be cost effecient because your army needs to have certain weaknesses, thats Macro-Balancing
SO if you made a Spider Cost effective with its current stats what role would it fill? the same one as a warrior, but weaker and slightly more mobile, it equals out it doesnt matter which you pick other than which you prefer... IF there is no difference between them... One shouldnt exist.
The major role I see the spider filling nicely, is short-medium range 'Disruption' something like what a Brain Bugs Ego War can get you, but not quite as good,
a Brain's Ego War is great, and has little risk initially as its 36 inch range... but you are risking that the brain will be caught in LOS and out in the open, and its a 300 point asset... the greatness is offset.
If say the spider had a ranged attack that was bad, did no Real Dammage, but prevented a squad from moving of any form until the unit Readies, or Prevents the NEXT reaction (but not all) or Spoils ready status, or any combination thereof, it would offer an alternative in a similar role, DISTRIBUTED Risk for a worse ability, and it would anchor the unit not as a main line replacement for a warrior, but as a support unit, something that disables an enemy unit to a degree, allowing warriors to move in, and this lets your brain be free for more important duties,
Or Hey dont like that? maybe the overseer fills that role too nicely?
Howabout we let the damn things be deployed with Ambush? 0-1 squad of them at PL3 or deployed like the enw independent snipers are, must be revealed by end of round 3, or lock them to say a terrain piece, but hidden... spiders strike me as a sneaky surprise unit and that would make having one big unit VERY viable. that would be new....
ok im done ranting...
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
yes...... but every game you can take out a 125 point plus 100 points of trait LT with a 75 point model, then he hides and reacts next turn, taking out another model. Or, in reaction he dives down the hole (alarm screech) and becomes a tunnel marker.Quark said:
He is going to be taken out, but they'll waste a round doing it, they can't ignore him. Field three at PL 3.... devastating. For total overkill suicidal stimulation him.
And as for taking cover in the tunnel entrance...... it's size four, they can't see him as his PBR range doesn't extend out of it (he's size one).
They can react, but they have no LOS to him. So, move him to 6.5" and reveal (reveal triggers no reaction) then charge him in 6", he's now at PBR and can fight. Nothing the MI can do to stop it other than to surround all of their command models with troops.
Gauntlet, that's a fascinating question! I guess just because of the fact that we use the 2-d card markers from the box set I always thought of them as having a size 4 HORIZONTALLY, I never really thought about the VERTICAL at all! We've always played it that if the bug's center point was in the hole, it got cover, but WAS visible, but I think you're right about him being ON TOP of the hole! How would that work? I guess you'd have to specify when the bug is taking cover "in the hole" versus standing on top of it. This could really change things as far as Blisters/Blasters go!
Anyway, regardless of how it's suppose to work, my opponents are just too skilled at erasing bug holes so even if they couldn't hit the Infiltrator himself he'd still probably get wiped out when the hole collapsed. Plus, if it goes into the tunnel it moves randomly at that point, and the way I roll dice he may as well be dead anyway! :lol: That's a good point though, if it does just take down one expensive model before it dies it's still somewhat of a value. Problem for me is that infernal sicon advisor! I'm almost always up against a force that's considered pl 1, so I rarely get the first turn.
Anyway, regardless of how it's suppose to work, my opponents are just too skilled at erasing bug holes so even if they couldn't hit the Infiltrator himself he'd still probably get wiped out when the hole collapsed. Plus, if it goes into the tunnel it moves randomly at that point, and the way I roll dice he may as well be dead anyway! :lol: That's a good point though, if it does just take down one expensive model before it dies it's still somewhat of a value. Problem for me is that infernal sicon advisor! I'm almost always up against a force that's considered pl 1, so I rarely get the first turn.
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
its not really a question its pretty much a statement of fact, look up a topic about magical tunnel walls.... they block LOS 4 inches high so you can hide Tankers behind them lol
I was asking because Im less certain on LOS and cover for example I thought you couldnt shoot a unit that was deep enough in a forest, but I can find no reference to that, so I was curious as to whether something like that was in effect.
They are good at wiping tunnels off? Are you sure your playing them right? aside from a nuke it takes alot of effort to take a TE off the board... and usually its not worth it.
I was asking because Im less certain on LOS and cover for example I thought you couldnt shoot a unit that was deep enough in a forest, but I can find no reference to that, so I was curious as to whether something like that was in effect.
They are good at wiping tunnels off? Are you sure your playing them right? aside from a nuke it takes alot of effort to take a TE off the board... and usually its not worth it.
Oh yeah, we're playin' right. Reaver missiles suck. That's all I have to say. Problem is my opponent gets the first turn in almost every game, so any entrances I place on his side of the board will recieve the full attention of every heavy weapon in his army in round one. Punching Chas units (BTW whose bright idea was it to make those damn things MORE available? I'd like to punch him :lol: ), Holepunch after Holepunch, Reavers, Thermo Charges, whatever has even the slightest chance of damaging it gets hurled at it. Don't get me wrong. It's good in that it keeps his heavy stuff off my back for a turn, it just gets tuogh when all your pre-placed entrances get wiped out and you end up having to ready before surfacing. It tends to slow everything down which is bad as the MI I player I play against is very good "on the bounce".
