Spells & XP Costs

[Bailywolf]

OK, going over the spells listed in the CONAN RPG, I find a number with XP costs... I generally hate an XP levy for anything which doesn't produce permenant or semi-permenant results (the creation of a magic sword= xp cost is good, the creation of a magic potion = XP cost is bad). Some of the summoning spells are really terrible in terms of their cost-to-benifit breakdown.

It's not like you get a demon servent to kick around long-term... he does one thing (lasting a matter of minutes ) then buggers of with your Power Points and your XP!

Summoning up a normal wolf costs you 50XP! This seems pretty extreme... especially considering the duration is only Minutes.


Sorcerers already have enough trouble with Power Points... why hamstring their advancement with XP costs?

I can see requiring a Fate point for especially awesome spells... but it's not like Sorcerers are going to stomp on the other classes... between limited spell selection, harsh preqs for spells, and dwindling PP pools... an XP cost seems like kicking someone when they are down.

I'm going to just ditch them for my games... but what do others think about XP costs for some spells?

-B

 

[BhilJhoanz]

I love the idea of a sharp penalty for magic when a setting is gritty. I was so sick of D&D's frivilous use of magic. My wizards were popping off spells without a second thought -- and they completely lost their mystery, uniqueness and sense of danger.

I'd hate for a Conan game that I played in to end up with that same tone. The decision to cast a spell should require that a scholar weight the benefit against the loss of his very life force -- especially with potent spells!

If anything, with the sort of subjective XP system in Conan, XP loss may not be enough of a penalty! I'm a big fan of Cthulhu's Sanity/ability damage system and we've even made our own tables for incorporating Ability Damage into certain D&D spellcasting (it's a rather heavily modified casting method that we use). I could see a similar system being used in Conan: Instead of (or in addition to!) XP loss, the Caster would take 1d4 Int damage. For especially powerful spells even permanent loss might be appropriate!

 

[slaughterj]

I've never liked / can't stand XP costs for spell casting - maybe getting spells, but not just to cast them. I'm good with most any other limiting mechanic, including power points, rare components, ability damage, etc. I probably will not use the XP costs (first I've heard of them), and incorporate something else maybe, e.g., ability damage, where appropriate.

 

[Bailywolf]

I can see an XP cost for a spell which produced permenant results or had broad and sweeping power (XP for a Wish-like spell) but for basic summoning of animals?

Summon up a beaver, and it costs 25 XP.

Conjure a terrible ardvark and it's another 25XP.

Get really crazy and call forth a dark and terrible Big Shaggy Dog and it's 50xp.

No sorcerer- power mad bastards that they are- is going to waste his vital esential spark (Which would otherwise serve to make him MORE and PERMENATLY powerful) on a beaver, ardvark, dog, wolf, halk, or wildcat.

Doesn't seem right.

Especilly when you look at the variables on the spell... minutes of duration equal to level!

Meh.

I'll just ditch the XP costs.

-B

 

[Padre]

I like the idea of paying with XP. It prevents sorcerers from going wacky - you have to consider each and every spell you throw. It makes magic-using PCs seem more dark and... well, sorcerer-like.

 

[VincentDarlage]

you have to consider each and every spell you throw. It makes magic-using PCs seem more dark and... well, sorcerer-like.

I am in 100% agreement there. Sorcerers should consider each and every spell thrown, and deeply consider their options at that.

 

[Anonymous]

While I am fine with the XP outlays, it does shaft sorcerers, just like in D&D. The other classes have nothing to spend their XP on, creating lopsided XP totals in favor of the non-spellcasters. Fantasy Flight's "Path of" d20 books (particularly PATH OF THE SWORD) offer up schools and training to get bonuses in combat or out of combat as a way to balance this. Bastion's book GUILDCRAFT has organizational membership ranks, with each rank costing XP and giving back perks in return. Both excellent ideas for sucking away XP from all characters. With Conan's lower XP awards, losing XP is more crippling than usual, so having the sorcerer always lagging behind kinda sucks... Even though they should be penalized---unlike the other classes, sorcerers get "something for nothing" meaning they can use magic to do their bidding without dirtying their hands. They just sit back and cast while other classes have to slug it out.

 

[Anonymous]

While I am fine with the XP outlays, it does shaft sorcerers, just like in D&D. The other classes have nothing to spend their XP on, creating lopsided XP totals in favor of the non-spellcasters. Fantasy Flight's "Path of" d20 books (particularly PATH OF THE SWORD) offer up schools and training to get bonuses in combat or out of combat as a way to balance this. Bastion's book GUILDCRAFT has organizational membership ranks, with each rank costing XP and giving back perks in return. Both excellent ideas for sucking away XP from all characters. With Conan's lower XP awards, losing XP is more crippling than usual, so having the sorcerer always lagging behind kinda sucks... Even though they should be penalized---unlike the other classes, sorcerers get "something for nothing" meaning they can use magic to do their bidding without dirtying their hands. They just sit back and cast while other classes have to slug it out.

Another use for XPs is in Kenzer's KINGDOMS OF KALAMAR PLAYER'S GUIDE, which has perks and responsibilities for priests.

Another goody in that book is the divine right of kings---giving special bonuses to noble rulers, something that is used as a plot device in Andy Offut's CONAN AND THE SORCERER/CONAN THE MERCENARY---that a special spark of power exists in all who rule.

 

[JamesMishler]

Bah! Why make it easier for sorcerers! Munchkinism has turned D&D from a role-playing game to a "who can get their spell off first" contest. The sorcery system of Conan goes a long way to rectify that situation, puts magic in its time-honored place as a thing of mystery and terror (for the caster and the target) and as a result it makes sorcery have a great cost... Sorcery costs time, effort, sanity, blood, and souls.

Remember, sorcery requires long years of study. Ever heard of a *young* sorcerer in any Conan tales? They are all middle-age or older (very, very much older). That's because it isn't remotely as easy to learn to cast a spell as it is to swing a sword. It *shouldn't* be, even when the results are pretty much the same. With a sword, you are using the world around you as it is. With sorcery, you are making the world fit *your* will, which is much, much harder...

Sorcery isn't easy in the world of Conan. You need to have knowledge of things that would blast the minds of lesser men. You have to seek out materials which most regard as mythical, often in lands that are only known in legend. Find ancient grimoires that are written in the most blasphemous inhuman tongues. Listen to whispered secrets from the demons of the outer dark, or pry knowledge from the dessicated lips of ancient mummies. In the world of Conan, you don't just go down to the neigborhood library, pay 50 gp, and suddenly know a 3rd level "fireball" spell...

Why do sorcerer's "waste their time and personal energies" to get these spells? Because they are all uniformly mad, of course. Every sorcerer is outright insane, whether it takes the form of a common insanity or his obsession with magic. Sure, maybe his time would have been better spent practicing shooting a bow rather than learning Agonizing Doom; he'd kill a lot more people a lot more quickly that way. But the mechanical use of a bow is not as sweet as the terror, as pungent as the fear, and as potent as the loathing caused by the use of a soul-wrenching spell.

And then the real cost... Gaining the knowledge of sorcery was cheap compared to the cost of using sorcery. You may have the knowledge, you may have the basic requisite materials, but there is yet a more terrible cost that must be paid. And it must be a personal cost. When you cast a spell reality warps to your will. Reality wants something in return. Takes something in return.

Remember, the Conan RPG system isn't about *playing a game*. It's about recreating the *world of Conan*. And the world of Conan doesn't work like a munchkin's wet dream. There are no "power ups," there is no "save function," and "god mode" is what is done *to* you... not what you play.

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

unless mongoose has already come out with another printing, but only the summoning spells have an XP cost. and too right as well! The most powerful sorceror is still the necromancer, which has 'instant death' spells that rock the world... and only require power points.

and who has mage problems in DnD? please, an arrow will kill most mages in that game. IMO- mages and sorcerors are at a huge disadvantage when warriors always get the initiative- and considering that Reflex is now added into the initiative roll, I'd say warriors got everything under control in this game.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't forget the Defensive Blast all sorcerers get: 1d6 fire damage/PP in a 10 ft. radius. Imagine charging a sorcerer with 27 PP... Ouch!

I, for one, would be willing to consider different types of defensive blast damage for different sorcerers. Maybe all sorcerers with demonic pacts to Cthulhu do acid damage, for example, or all acolytes of Akavashi the Vampire do cold damage (this way, they can't ever turn the sorcery she's taught them against her, as undead are immune to cold damage). It would add flavor and unpredictability to an already dangerous proposition and doesn't really change much, as hardly any PC will have immunity to any elements anyway.

 

[InsomNY]

Yeah. What he said. :wink:

Edit: Bugger all. People responded faster than I did. I'm agreeing with JamesMishler, if you must know.

Another thing we might consider is adding the ability to siphon off XP for sorcery from an apprentice or sacrificial victim. It makes sense, doesn't it? If you can steal the power to create a sorcerous effect from them already, isn't XP just another form of this power?

I'm not saying that sacrifices should absorb the entire burden of XP, or that a sorcerer needs to keep a train of slaves with him on the off chance he wants to summon a bobcat. But some manner of splitting the cost, or storing up sacrificial XP solely for spellcasting purposes, might be workable.

 

[JamesMishler]

Another thing we might consider is adding the ability to siphon off XP for sorcery from an apprentice or sacrificial victim. It makes sense, doesn't it?

Sure does... That's one of the things I already planned on working on for my campaign. Sacrifices work for PP, why not for XP? Why not for some other minimal requirements? But I'd love to see someone else do the work for me... (^_^)

 

[S'mon]

No sorcerer summons beavers or aardvarks in the stories AFAIK - and presumably there's a reason for this; ie if you allow easy/cheap summoning in your game the flavour will inevitably be changed.

Personally I don't think players should be encouraged to play magic-wielding PCs in Conan; the costs should always outweigh the benefits. Regular D&D is fine for spell-slinging.

 

[Bailywolf]

Yeah. What he said. :wink:

Edit: Bugger all. People responded faster than I did. I'm agreeing with JamesMishler, if you must know.

Another thing we might consider is adding the ability to siphon off XP for sorcery from an apprentice or sacrificial victim. It makes sense, doesn't it? If you can steal the power to create a sorcerous effect from them already, isn't XP just another form of this power?

I'm not saying that sacrifices should absorb the entire burden of XP, or that a sorcerer needs to keep a train of slaves with him on the off chance he wants to summon a bobcat. But some manner of splitting the cost, or storing up sacrificial XP solely for spellcasting purposes, might be workable.

But this is totally redundant- as if the whole concept of XP cost for spells in this game.

I Despise redundancy in game systems.

The scarcity of Power Points and all the means by whcih they can be gathered (from victims, from aprentices, from rituals etc) cover this thematically... adding still another layer of cost just seems absurd.

Carefully preserving his power for times of dire need is a classic Sorcerer trait... you only have a bare handful of PP's, unless you max them out with sacrifice or a lotus bender or something... one good spell, and you're pretty much spent. This I am entirely fine with- it is flavorful and playable.

Look. If there was an XP cost associated with spells which...oh...didn't suck, I would have little issue with them. Jeeze people, the spell which lets you turn someone into a werewolf under your nominal control PERMENATLY doesn't cost any XP...

It isn't that I feel XP cost is never aplicable, but rather I feel that should this extreme cost be levied against a sorcerer, it should result in something really impressive or versitile... Animal Summoning sure doesn't rise to that level.

In fact, rather than use XP costs for the really mighty stuff, I'd instead charge a Fate point... since casting this stuff is supposed to be big and dramatic.

My point is this- the spells which cost XP don't output results which can justify this cost. I am well aware that D&D and CONAN are entirely different games, with different topes and styles... but I know that my players are the same regardless, and they snort at spells with XP costs which don't really kick. No one would bother with them.

-B

 

[Anonymous]

I've got a priest of Hannuman (Scholar 6) who thinks summoning up a great Gray Ape for XP is XP well spent. I would think that summoning should be limited to one type (the god's totem animal, or all animals in the case of Jhebbal Sag) and that such animals should be both combat or spying useful as well as flavorful. Dire badgers (to use a D&D example) are just frikkin' lame. Swarms of flesh-eating beetles, poisonous snakes, throat-ripping bats, or eye gouging ravens are all much cooler. The 3.5e D&D Monster Manual has various Swarms in it that would work well with Conan. That book also has more animals in it to choose from; simple to convert to Conan.

 

[Bailywolf]

Ah well. I'll ditch them, then report the results. Nothing tells like actual play.

-B