Space Superiority Fighter

[SSWarlock]

So why do bays need to allocate 1 ton to fire control if barbettes don't.

Either they all do or none do.

Then the barbette examples should have it..but they don't. Bays and turrets do in examples but barbettes don't. *shrug* I also think they should but Mongoose didn't ask me. :wink:

 

[Sigtrygg]

Well in original High Guard neither the barbette or the bay needed 1 ton of fire control.

So scrap it.

 

[SSWarlock]

Well in original High Guard neither the barbette or the bay needed 1 ton of fire control.

So scrap it.

I agree. Looks like the F/C requirement for bays is one for the errata list.

 

[Nerhesi]

Just remember that the fire-control for turrets is the turret-volume. Scraping that basically means you can arm any ship up to it's maximum capacity with energy weapons for free (dtons wise).

 

[SSWarlock]

Just remember that the fire-control for turrets is the turret-volume. Scraping that basically means you can arm any ship up to it's maximum capacity with energy weapons for free (dtons wise).

Absolutely. Turrets require F/C but, IMO, any weapon mount that requires its own tonnage (barbettes, bays, spinal mounts) includes F/C in that tonnage.

 

[JP42]

I say that, by RAW, Barbettes use 5 tons which includes F/C. Both Turrets and Bays explicitly are said to require a ton of F/C, in addition to the tonnage of the bay. So if it helps at all, Barbettes are 4 tons, plus a single ton of F/C, maybe?

Now flee, before we rehash magazine capacities...

 

[Nerhesi]

Exeunt - Stage Left.

 

[SSWarlock]

Joy! The 1 ton recovered from the removed F/C allowed me to upgrade the sensors on my 40 ton "Wolverine"-class to Advanced Military while my two torpedo fighters ("Quickhatch-A" and "-B") each received a 2G-capable High Burn Thruster with one hour's worth of fuel. Yes, the refits are a bit expensive but an edge in combat is an edge and no pilot has gone into combat thinking "gosh, I wish they hadn't spent so much on what I'm flying trying to improve my survivability."

 

[Chas]

Very good points, Nerhesi. I'll look at my numbers; I likely made some transcription errors. I do like the rad shielding for making the craft EMP-proof but I may have been operating under bad assumptions as to how common that is. I've been using too many house rules for too long; some of them have been ingrained and I'm thinking the EMP effects from nuke missiles is one of them.

Update: My armor formula was indeed off and has been corrected.

Regarding the numbers for the HBT and its fuel, I calc'd the HBT itself as being based on the sF M-drive, which gives a performance of 3Gs for a base tonnage of 3 at a cost of MCr6. The HBT displacement formula would then be (3*0.2). I think the "under tonnage" you may be seeing is due to my use of the Advanced Tech miniaturization rules for M-Drives to reduce the HBT displacement down to 75% of its base tonnage, changing the formula to 3*0.2*0.75 to get a product of 0.45 tons. The use of miniaturization rules for HBTs may be incorrect but unfortunately I haven't found anything in the books that clarify this. Doesn't mean it isn't there; I just haven't found it (yet).

Since the HBT fuel isn't affected by Advanced Tech and it's based on the displacement of the HBT it serves, I calc'd the amount of fuel by using the non-miniaturized version of the drive. So the fuel formula would be (3*0.2)*0.25.

:idea:

Oh my. I may have been misinterpreting the rules. When Scoundrels said "Fuel equal to 25% of the mass of the drive..", I thought it was referring to the non-miniaturized HBT. However, the preceding sentence does state the amount of fuel required depends "..on the thruster's drive number." Upon careful thought, that would seem to be the tonnage of the original sF M-Drive. Which is 3 tons, making the Fuel Use (F) formula (F=3*0.25*B) where B = the number of HBT burns in hours. So the minimum fuel for a 1-hour 3G burn would be 3*0.25 or 0.75 ton

Ouch. Looks like HBTs are indeed limited to non-small craft vessels. Or at least their fuel requirement puts them out of reach of a 40-ton craft .

Well, this is what's called "a successful failure". My design still needs to be tweaked but I'm learning a lot about small craft design and getting defined what seems to be the most effective fighter design for its cost the MongTrav rules allow. Which is my primary goal.

I've done my drones based on the latter formula, my careful thought i.e. our unnecessarily difficult interpretation of thatwhichwasnotparticularlywelldefinedinthefirstplace, ended up with the same conclusion that the fuel is based on the original drive and the higher value. I've got use for them, but it's limited to there and back again type action. I was just double checking there wasn't something like this you guys hadn't turned over... I'm just debating my very last, last point of design, whether to include a couple of 40t space superiority fighters or just stick to standardized 30t bays which I've found your designs very useful reference for, thank you 8)

 

[Nerhesi]

I may be misunderstanding... but if you're comparing 30 to 40 ton designs, I know there is something that is key to going to 40 tons. I don't have my books on me (in switzerland for 1st year aniv and posting from my BlackBerry in the bathroom so the wife doesn't find out - shhh) - but im pretty sure the 40 ton requirement had to do with being able to fit a plasma barbette there. I think.

 

[SSWarlock]

I may be misunderstanding... but if you're comparing 30 to 40 ton designs, I know there is something that is key to going to 40 tons. I don't have my books on me (in switzerland for 1st year aniv and posting from my BlackBerry in the bathroom so the wife doesn't find out - shhh) - but im pretty sure the 40 ton requirement had to do with being able to fit a plasma barbette there. I think.

It was that exactly.

The real strength of a 30-ton design is its access to a 16G-capable M-Drive. However, it simply doesn't have the room for that drive and a barbette of any kind with everything else it must have (power plant, sensors adequate for combat, fuel, etc). So if mounting a plasma barbette takes precedence over mounting a 16G M-Drive then a 40-ton fighter is much more survivable than a 30-ton design. Of course, giving a 16G-capable 30-ton fighter a Very High Yield turreted Particle Beam gives said fighter an armor piercing punch that's actually 1 point above the minimum armor-piercing capability of a standard Plasma Gun barbette. That's a little scary.

But then the zippy, hard-hitting 30-tonner will always be much more fragile than a high survivability 40-tonner with the equivalent firepower. As your and my design efforts point out.

 

[SSWarlock]

And congratulations on your first year anniversary, Nerhesi! Switzerland is a beautiful place to spend it.

 

[phavoc]

Now you gotta design the carriers...

 

[Chas]

I may be misunderstanding... but if you're comparing 30 to 40 ton designs, I know there is something that is key to going to 40 tons. I don't have my books on me (in switzerland for 1st year aniv and posting from my BlackBerry in the bathroom so the wife doesn't find out - shhh) - but im pretty sure the 40 ton requirement had to do with being able to fit a plasma barbette there. I think.

This made me laugh. (and happy anniversary)

I was in the middle of final tweaks, you know working out the last .5t and then finding out somehow in some late night miss-click my 60tons of armoured bulkhead for the drives was missing from the weight column, little things like that.

All good though, and am sticking with 30t bays. :arrow:

 

[Nerhesi]

Now you gotta design the carriers...

I think the ugly Jump skeletal carrier that can carry 2000 or 1000 fighters is somewhere between pages 4 and 7

200,000 ton carrier with full hanger capability for 1-2000 fighters I believe

 

[Nerhesi]

And congratulations on your first year anniversary, Nerhesi! Switzerland is a beautiful place to spend it.

Thank you for the well-wishes. Wife is Jet lagged (Toronto to Zurich) but hopefully Rome and Positano will change that as that is the plan for the next two weeks

In more serious news I just realised, can't mount barbettes on 30-tons; barbettes' count as two weapons and so require 40 tons. Well, at least particle barbettes which we figured would apply to plasma barbettes due to similarity and balance purposes

 

[SSWarlock]

I just realised, can't mount barbettes on 30-tons; barbettes' count as two weapons and so require 40 tons. Well, at least particle barbettes which we figured would apply to plasma barbettes due to similarity and balance purposes

That's what it was. I'd forgotten about the slot limitation but that is the main combat limitation. Shame on me.

But even if the limitation didn't exist, the lack of enough volume for the goodness known as "Reinforced Hull" and armor ratings above 6 will always keep any 30-tonner with a 16G M-Drive extremely fragile. Small craft can have extreme speed, survivability, and hard-hitting weaponry; the bad news is a craft designer can pick only two out of the three.

I hope you two enjoy Rome! I found walking the Appian Way and touring the underground crypts to be amazing.

 

[phavoc]

Now you gotta design the carriers...

I think the ugly Jump skeletal carrier that can carry 2000 or 1000 fighters is somewhere between pages 4 and 7

200,000 ton carrier with full hanger capability for 1-2000 fighters I believe

Nah, you should design some smaller carriers, with missions like scout, escort, maybe even light attack.

What are the deck crew requirement(s) for your fighters?

 

[Nerhesi]

Now you gotta design the carriers...

I think the ugly Jump skeletal carrier that can carry 2000 or 1000 fighters is somewhere between pages 4 and 7

200,000 ton carrier with full hanger capability for 1-2000 fighters I believe

Nah, you should design some smaller carriers, with missions like scout, escort, maybe even light attack.

What are the deck crew requirement(s) for your fighters?

Challenge Accepted! But not on 1st Anniv - lol. Deck crew requirements I'm unsure on - I do know that the 1000 fighters (single seat) that take out an equal costed battleship have around 1/3rd the crew. But that does NOT include deck crew.

 

[Nerhesi]

I hope you two enjoy Rome! I found walking the Appian Way and touring the underground crypts to be amazing.

Noted - will definitely include that!