Space Combat Fix

[arcador]

In the old system we had this case:

We fight with highly armored ship for our firepower. We manage to score some hits and reduce his armor 1 point, which allows us to hit it with the pulse lasers. But it HULL dropped to 0, thus we moved to the internal table which doesn't have ... armor hits. So the battle continued for A LONG TIME.

It was kind of strange to be unable to damage the ship after its hull as down. We had to make some house rules to compensate that.

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Btw guys, I think that the Sustained damage rule works for each 10% of damage inflicted regardless on how it was inflicted. I.e. if 10% is 5 points, you got hit 5 times for 1 point of damage, you lose 10%, you receive a critical hit (sev 1). Then when you lose your second 10% (lost 20%) another critical hit and so on...

edit: Actually I think your posts were before the update, thus my comment might be irrelevant.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

In the old system we had this case:

We fight with highly armored ship for our firepower. We manage to score some hits and reduce his armor 1 point, which allows us to hit it with the pulse lasers. But it HULL dropped to 0, thus we moved to the internal table which doesn't have ... armor hits. So the battle continued for A LONG TIME.

It was kind of strange to be unable to damage the ship after its hull as down. We had to make some house rules to compensate that.

No one was hitting structures then inside the ship? The referee wasn't allowing for called shots at a ship's interior if everything was exposed?

 

[arcador]

I have questions regarding the sustained damage rule as, it seems, I am interpreting it differently than what I read here.

So, how it works? Lets say the ship has 100 hull, so the 10% is 10 hull points.

- Does the ship take a critical every time he loses 10 hull, regardless on how much at once? I.e. he is hit for 6,3,3, and he takes a critical. In this case there are 9 criticals ensured until destruction, on each 10 points lost.

or

- Does the ship take a critical only when the damage of the attack is 10 or more? And if this is the case, does the ship take 2 criticals (severity 1) when the damage is 20 in one attack, or is it only 1 critical? In this case there might be less than 9 criticals until destruction.

 

[NOLATrav]

I think I prefer:

Effect of 6+ = Crit
Damage from a SINGLE attack of (10% Hull)+ = Crit, (20% Hull)+ = 2 Crits, etc

I don't think a series of small hits should add up to a Crit.

 

[Nerhesi]

I think I prefer:

Effect of 6+ = Crit
Damage from a SINGLE attack of (10% Hull)+ = Crit, (20% Hull)+ = 2 Crits, etc

I don't think a series of small hits should add up to a Crit.

As long as you guys are aware that Engineer repair is becoming super repair under these scenarios.

Previously, in a large 700 ton vs 700 ton battle between two adventure class ships, your engineers would be repairing 1-3 hits a round! And you're looking at 10-rounds of battle if not more (I know.. I've done a bunch ) so 20+ repair rolls on average between the engineer and the repair bots. Very cool and cinematic

Now you'll have, 9, at most. Probably you'll have less. This is over 10+ rounds. And of course, these are only severity-1 criticals.. the bigger the critical, the less criticals you will have!

We can re-assess after hull-values and issues are resolved. I'll run a couple of 200-ton, 500-ton, and maybe 2000-ton mockups with my group to see how the crew members contribute.

 

[hdan]

Maybe this has already been tried (though I didn't see it in my cursory search), but I just "back of the envelope" playtested a simple combat using the following idea (clearly inspired by the old system), and the results were pleasingly cinematic to me, so I thought I'd share.

For my purposes, the combat system should generate an exciting an flavorful encounter, where players desperately try to keep their ship together, and where damage is usually dealt in a way that adds flavor to the scene, rather than just knocking points off of the ship. I'm a HUGE fan of the Crit Table (having played VaS and its sister game(s)), so I'd like to move it front and center.

Towards that end:

* The "Crit Table" is the only way a ship takes damage.
* Every attack that penetrates armor causes a roll on the Crit table
* This Crit deals 1 Level per 10 points of damage, rounded up
** Maybe this should be "crit per 10% Hull damage" or something, since that seems to work.
* An attack with Effect 6+ may choose which Crit to deal. ("Aim for their weapons!")
* Engineers repair Crit Levels during combat.
** If a system is at "Severity 0", then the engineer can attempt to repair actual damage from that crit.

So the first time you hit someone and bypass their armor, roll the "Crit" table. On a 7 (the most common result) you do 1d6 Hull points, which is enough to take out a fighter if you're lucky. The engineer (or your R2 unit, lol) can then attempt to repair the "hull crit". If she's unsuccessful before you take another #7 hit, then as usual, you'll take 2D hull points, so better get working on those support struts!

Naturally, if the target is lucky, then they'll only lose some functionality for each hit. A 4-turret cruiser with triple lasers is still likely to shred a civilian ship though. And if they have sophisticated software, sensors, and talented gunners, they're likely going to be able to disable the ship in a way that they want.

 

[chiron0224]

Just play tested it and I found that treating it as 10% damage taken thus far worked well. It made sense to me that even if all the individual hits were small that as the hull got ripped away crits were inevitable. It just felt right having the ship that was winding down in hull start to fall apart in terms of ship systems. The thing I struggled with though is how do you determine the severity of crits inflicted due to sustained damage? Is it based on the most recent attack? Are they always assumed to be severity 1 so either starting on a new system or ratcheting up if that system has already been hit? The rules currently don't really explain it well.

 

[Nerhesi]

Just play tested it and I found that treating it as 10% damage taken thus far worked well. It made sense to me that even if all the individual hits were small that as the hull got ripped away crits were inevitable. It just felt right having the ship that was winding down in hull start to fall apart in terms of ship systems. The thing I struggled with though is how do you determine the severity of crits inflicted due to sustained damage? Is it based on the most recent attack? Are they always assumed to be severity 1 so either starting on a new system or ratcheting up if that system has already been hit? The rules currently don't really explain it well.

The challenge with this approach is that it takes back to the old system (almost identically so) - which means ridiculously powerful small craft, and incredibly extended space combat durations.

I think one of the benefits of the current MGT2 approach is the simplicity and alignment of having "hull damage" being the core damage you take. I don't really like that hull damage is something that happens if you get crit hard/concurrently

I think the problem with a "lack of the ship falling apart" is that criticals are not happening often enough before you disintegrate from total hull loss. I'm a big fan of the crit table too - it needs to be used more, but as I consequence, and not as the go-to initial effect of damage.

If you think about it - maximum 9 crits before you die now. That's actually a bit trivial for most engineers to address.

Perhaps try 5%...

Combat is still fast paced.
Smallcraft still crumple.
Crits are still a central part of the game.

 

[chiron0224]

I'll try a play test fight tonight with 5% as the number and see how it plays out. I think that the damage thresholds are a good idea. The real question is what percentages and how do you determine the severity of crits sustained this way?

 

[chiron0224]

Also I just realized that my earlier comment sounded like I play tested hdan's system. What I meant was that I play tested the book system with the 10% damage thresholds. That's what I get for not reading all the replies in a thread.

Speaking of hdan's system. I think you have something there if players wanted a different feel. I think the CRB version should be something like what it is now but your system I think would be a great alternate system for that companion book they've been talking about releasing. Like it could be labeled "Cinematic Space Combat rules" and be offered as an alternate way to play for parties that want a more cinematic combat style.

 

[chiron0224]

Just did a play test with book rules and a 5% sustained damage threshold for crits and at first it all looked good. The ships were taking a crit about every round. Every hit was felt and it really felt like the combat was a dynamic fight with engineers on both sides struggling to keep the systems together. And then the severity 2 hull hit was rolled. This ended up forcing like 3 or for crit rolls which resulted in more hull hits which resulted in even more etc. The ship got caught in a feedback loop that ripped it completely to shreds.

Now sure, this would have happened with the other system too but my goodness did it not take long to occur in this play test. It's my personal opinion that 10% is a good damage threshold. With 5% the crits spiral out of control really early in the combat.


EDIT: Just thought about it for a bit and it might be because I'm doing a clash of scouts. I think I'll try it again with a couple of weaponized free traders and see how it plays out then.

 

[Nerhesi]

Just did a play test with book rules and a 5% sustained damage threshold for crits and at first it all looked good. The ships were taking a crit about every round. Every hit was felt and it really felt like the combat was a dynamic fight with engineers on both sides struggling to keep the systems together. And then the severity 2 hull hit was rolled. This ended up forcing like 3 or for crit rolls which resulted in more hull hits which resulted in even more etc. The ship got caught in a feedback loop that ripped it completely to shreds.

Now sure, this would have happened with the other system too but my goodness did it not take long to occur in this play test. It's my personal opinion that 10% is a good damage threshold. With 5% the crits spiral out of control really early in the combat.


EDIT: Just thought about it for a bit and it might be because I'm doing a clash of scouts. I think I'll try it again with a couple of weaponized free traders and see how it plays out then.

Crits causing more hull damage, shouldn't cause further crits.. that could cause a feedback loop in a lot of scenarios... good catch. Even smaller ships with 10% crit could happen.

Honestly, 10% crit is fine for game balance over all. But just be aware that meaningful crits are a thing of the past. Because it is trivial if you have to a repair, 9 crits, at best, over and entire combat. So basically, engineers dont really do in-combat repairs any more as their main thing (where it used to be a 50% chance of system damage PER HIT) - perhaps they're just assigning power now...

That engineer is going to be incredibly bored compared to what they were doing in MGT1. Where my group has first hand experience with multiple rolls PER round in their 700-ton ship (get hit 4-5 times, 2-3 systems damaged.. get to work engineer!!)

Using current MGT2, by the time the engineer makes his 6th or 7th roll - you should be abandoning ship. Assuming there wasn't any significant hit, in which case the engineer is floating in space with the debris now anyways. This is contrasted versus the 6th or 7th roll being made in the second or third turn of combat in MGT1... The engineer generally had more rolls than any other single crew member