Sorry another tank move & shoot querry

[hithero]

Tonights game. Whats the point in a tanks normal move?
Sherman moves 4" and in its second action shoots and has to re-roll the hit. But if he uses 'tracks' he can now move 8" and shoot with a re-roll. We played it that if an action is used just to shoot then the tank does not count as moving (well it isn't anyway) seemed to work fine - gun the throttle and reduce the chance of hit, or travel slowly, stop & shoot and be more accurate.

The second problem was the re-roll. The Sherman hit the armoured car beating its target score, rolled higher on the re-roll and brewed the target. Shouldn't you alway's take the lowest score or something?

 

[rvrratt]

We ran into that same problem in our game Saturday. We played it that whatever your first hit was all you had to do was score at least the target for your second roll even if your first roll was a kill. However I think we may of played it wrong. It makes more sense to match your result with both rolls ie two kill rolls or two target rolls.

 

[Ravenwing]

in the rules for re-rolls, it states that you "always" use the second die roll, even if it is worse...that being said, if the second role is better, it is just that.

it would make sense to hope for an equal to or better than score on the re-roll.

the re-roll is there to represent the movement of the vehicle and a non stabilized gun, this gives the target a second chance at survival, however, sometimes you just get lucky and score a good hit despite the odds.

 

[Rabidchild]

If a sniper tries to pick off a lone soldier but rolls a two, uses his accurate re-roll to try again and rolls a one, should he be able to keep the two and at least suppress the poor lone soldier? No. The reroll has nothing to do with what we imagine is happening on the battlefield, it's a mechanic of statistics.

 

[hithero]

Still don't make any sense though that a tank penalised for moving can gain from it.

 

[Rabidchild]

The tank is not gaining from it, the first roll isn't compared to the second roll. The first roll ceases to exist once a re-roll is used, whether for Accuracy or Inaccuracy.

 

[hithero]

Its certainly is a bonus when a hit is converted to a kill as what happened to us.

 

[Desiato]

Maybe it’s best to look at the numbers.
The probabilities for a Sherman shooting at an armored car (D10+2 against Target 7+ and Kill 9+) are:
Miss= 0.4
Target hit= 0.2
Kill= 0.4

If the Sherman is moving and therefore has to re-roll successful attacks, the probabilities are:
Miss=0.64
Target hit= 0.12
Kill=0.24

I can’t see an advantage for moving unit.

 

[hithero]

Mathamatics aside, you can get Kills where you previously score a Target hit and therefore gain a better result because you moved - and thats not a better result? :?

 

[Foxmeister]

Mathamatics aside, you can get Kills where you previously score a Target hit and therefore gain a better result because you moved - and thats not a better result? :?

I do understand what you are trying to say, but it's looking at the results of the first roll that is causing you the issue. You need to get out of the mindset that the value of the original dice actually counts for anything bar indicating whether or not you get to roll the second dice. It's just a mechanism to reduce the frequency of hits when you are moving.

You can't get a "better result", because the value of the first dice is immaterial beyond indicating whether or not you get to roll to try and hit with your second dice roll.

Essentially:

Dice roll 1: Do I get to roll to see if I hit the target?
Dice roll 2: Do I hit the target/score a kill?

Consider the following:

Let's just assume that the rule stated that if a tank moves, it has to roll a 4+ before it can attempt to fire at a target. If you roll a dice, and make 4+, you then get to attempt to hit, whereas if you fail you get nothing.

All we are doing here is replacing the simple "4+" roll with a roll that's identical to a normal "to hit" roll, but kill scores don't come into it.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rabidchild]

Thank you Foxmeister and Desiato, that's it exactly.

 

[JayRaider]

Tonights game. Whats the point in a tanks normal move?

You can always Shoot then move with your normal 2 actions.
No re-roll
Also by using tracks, you move further, therefore perhaps exposing your weaker flank arcs to the enemy.

 

[hithero]

Tonights game. Whats the point in a tanks normal move?

You can always Shoot then move with your normal 2 actions.
No re-roll
Also by using tracks, you move further, therefore perhaps exposing your weaker flank arcs to the enemy.

Can't, the rules say if you make a move action during your turn you have to re-roll. Why would you move into a position that exposes your flank?

 

[JayRaider]

Tonights game. Whats the point in a tanks normal move?

You can always Shoot then move with your normal 2 actions.
No re-roll
Also by using tracks, you move further, therefore perhaps exposing your weaker flank arcs to the enemy.

Can't, the rules say if you make a move action during your turn you have to re-roll. Why would you move into a position that exposes your flank?

You haven't moved yet.
You fire first.
The re-roll doesn't apply.
Otherwise you would have to declare boths actions (Shoot then Move) at the start of a units actions.
And thats not in the rules.

 

[hithero]

Not what the rules say, they say, "...if the vehicles perfomes a move action in the same TURN" if you move before or after, its still in the same turn. If the rules allowed you to fire and then move, they would have said something to that effect like, "..if a vehicle performs a move action before shooting" and they don't.

 

[JayRaider]

If thats official well i agree with you "there doesn't seem much point in moving normally".

 

[rvrratt]

If thats official well i agree with you "there doesn't seem much point in moving normally".

We played it the same way. If you shoot, then move....no reroll. Otherwise, like you said, what's the point? If its wrong we will just make it our house rule!

 

[hithero]

Thats what we did in our first game too until we found we played it wrong. What we are currently trying out is that you only get the -1 if using track or wheels movement, this means that a model can move twice as fast as a normal move but suffers a penalty for doing so - seems more realistic and a fair way of doing things and seems to take away the rules ambiguities at the same time; after all if you are only moving at half speed (using one action) then you must be stationary when you shoot in a different action.

 

[retaf33c]

Thats what we did in our first game too until we found we played it wrong. What we are currently trying out is that you only get the -1 if using track or wheels movement, this means that a model can move twice as fast as a normal move but suffers a penalty for doing so - seems more realistic and a fair way of doing things and seems to take away the rules ambiguities at the same time; after all if you are only moving at half speed (using one action) then you must be stationary when you shoot in a different action.

I really like this approach. Otherwise, why would I want to restrict myself to one movement action and a shoot action when using the Track or Wheels trait is like getting 3 actions for the price of 2 with no penalty. And for Shermans you get an extra inch of movement.

As for shooting and then moving. The rules state you reroll if you move during the turn. Does that mean if you shoot as the first action, hit and don't reroll, then you cannot move for your second action? If that is the case, if you want to shoot then move it would make sense to wait for the shooting results before you declare a move. Then if you miss, you can move; however, if you get a kill, you may decide not to reroll and don't move for your second action.

I'm surprised this didn't came up in playtesting otherwise I would have expected the rule to be worded differently.

 

[pauld895]

It seems to me quite straightforward...

If you move with the tank at all during the turn you get the re-roll mechanic - no stabilisers so fair enough. It's not really a penalty just a uncertainty mechanic to make you think about strolling all over the battlefield like an invincible behemoth.

If you take the special movement you have to take a ready action in the previous turn - so effectively you save a shoot action from the previous turn and if you fire you still have to take the re-roll. Same principle.