Sorcery Range

[PhilHibbs]

Tell the GM thats how you'd like to order them? While they all take place in the same combat action, its easy enough to justify saying "I say the Neutralise spell first, followed by Enhance Damage and Wrack".

It has just occurred to me that you don't need to do this anyway. If the Neutralise Magic has enough Magnitude to dispel any defensive magic, then the Wrack also has enough Magnitude to punch through it. In fact, if you don't bother with the Neutralise, that frees up 1 more point of manipulation to put into Magnitude on the Wrack. So, by folding in a Neutralise Magic, you are reducing the chance of your spell taking effect. Maybe it could be a win in the long run though since your next spell won't need to have the Neutralise Magic or any magnitude, but they're already being Wracked by then (and you have to stop concentrating on the Wrack to cast another spell at them).
*Edit*: Oh, of course, Wrack is affected by Spell Resistance on an ongoing basis, I forgot. Going by what Wrack says on this, I can only assume that Countermagic Shield will reduce a Wrack only if it is cast after the Wrack, since one or other spell will have been eliminated if it were cast before it.

 

[Deleriad]

Neutralise always takes precedence. If the Neutralise Magic can affect the Magnitude of the Spell Resistance it neutralises it. No roll is required.

Spell resistance would never be cast with magnitude, though. It gets its potency purely from Grimoire skill - if your skill is 51-60%, then I'd say it would block any incoming Magnitude 6 or lower spells, including Neutralise Magic. NM would have to have higher Magnitude than the skill/10 of the SR-casting sorceror.

If you cast Spell Resistance with extra Magnitude it is harder to Neutralise. E.g.
Spell Resistance 73 and Manipulation 74. You could add +8 Magnitude (making it Magnitude 9). Now someone needs Neutralise magic 81+ to be able to take down the Spell Resistance.

Similarly, if you have spell resistance Mag 9 up then someone needs to Get 10 Magnitude into a Wrack to punch through it. Given that they are also likely to need Range for the Wrack, suddenly they need at least 10 points of Manipulation (+9 Mag, +1 Range) to get through and that's non-trivial.

 

[Deleriad]

Tell the GM thats how you'd like to order them? While they all take place in the same combat action, its easy enough to justify saying "I say the Neutralise spell first, followed by Enhance Damage and Wrack".

It has just occurred to me that you don't need to do this anyway. If the Neutralise Magic has enough Magnitude to dispel any defensive magic, then the Wrack also has enough Magnitude to punch through it.

You're forgetting something.
Neutralise Magic dispels magic based on its skill not its Magnitude. So NM 81% can Neutralise upto 9 Magnitude of Magic without needing to increase its own Magnitude.

Spell Resistance blocks spells of magnitude equal to or less than its skill/10.

Therefore no matter how high your Wrack skill, if you don't spend enough Manipulation points on Magnitude the Wrack will bounce off the Spell Resistance.

 

[SJE]

Yep, as mentioned, there is 2 ways of getting through Spell Resistance - either pump up the Magnitude of the spell to beat the Spell Resistance spell description (a good strategy for high manipulation, low Grimoire sorcerors - perhaps those who are still learning a new Grimoire). The Downside is you'll have to get closer and limits you to one effect.

Or... if you are a high Grimoire skill sorceror who knows lots of spells then the efficient choice is to combo in Neutralise, as that will take down the Spell Resistance whilst letting your Mag 1 Wrack, Attract Missiles and Palsy all ravage the target in a longer ranged spell.

SJE

 

[PhilHibbs]

You're forgetting something.
Neutralise Magic dispels magic based on its skill not its Magnitude. So NM 81% can Neutralise upto 9 Magnitude of Magic without needing to increase its own Magnitude.

Spell Resistance blocks spells of magnitude equal to or less than its skill/10.

Therefore no matter how high your Wrack skill, if you don't spend enough Manipulation points on Magnitude the Wrack will bounce off the Spell Resistance.

Of course. This is all taking a long time to get used to. It seems simple, but I keep forgetting how it works.

Or... if you are a high Grimoire skill sorceror who knows lots of spells then the efficient choice is to combo in Neutralise, as that will take down the Spell Resistance whilst letting your Mag 1 Wrack, Attract Missiles and Palsy all ravage the target in a longer ranged spell.

Again, I'm not sure about that. In my opinion, the Spell Resistance would bounce the whole package as it has only 1 Magnitude. In order to take down Spell Resistance, you need to cast Neutralise Magic and pump up the Magnitude. The key is that all the spells hit simultaneously, you don't get to work out if the Neutralise Magic has taken down the Spell Resistance before deciding whether the other spells bounce. You have to work out if the whole package bounces off the Spell Resistance before figuring out the effects of the spells. Making a special case of one spell is not a good idea in my opinion.

So, your Grimoire skill needs to be comparable to your opponent's, and your Manipulation needs to be comparable to their Grimoire as well since then you can add 1 more point into Magnitude than their spell can bounce.

 

[SJE]

But that isnt what happens- at the point your spell hits the target, the Spell resistance is neutralised simultaneous to the damage wracking your body.

The defence against the Spell-Combo attack is to pump up the magnitude of Spell Resistance when you cast it and hope your magnitude exceeds their Grimoire/10, so its not a game breaker or undefeatable attack. What it does do is give a mage A with Manipulation 40% a chance against Sorceror B with Grimoire 60%. Mage A can beat the Spell Resistance if he's got some mad grimoire skillz. Heck, doesnt even have to be Sorceror B, could be any common magic schmuck with Countermagic 6.

SJE

 

[PhilHibbs]

The defence against the Spell-Combo attack is to pump up the magnitude of Spell Resistance when you cast it and hope your magnitude exceeds their Grimoire/10, so its not a game breaker or undefeatable attack. What it does do is give a mage A with Manipulation 40% a chance against Sorceror B with Grimoire 60%. Mage A can beat the Spell Resistance if he's got some mad grimoire skillz. Heck, doesnt even have to be Sorceror B, could be any common magic schmuck with Countermagic 6.

I see, indeed it's a tricky one since my interpretation allows a sorceror with Spell Resistance and a higher Grimoire skill than either his opponent's Manipulation or his opponent's Grimoire to be completely immune. But that's an inevitable consequence of the absolute nature of spells - at some point, you out-match your opponent and they can't do anything to you even if they crit.
*Update*: Actually that raises an interesting idea. There should be some benefit from a crit other than just costing no MPs. If it added to the Magnitude of a spell, it would give people a chance of overcoming defensive magic. How much though? POW? That's too much. MPs? That's unfair on Divine Magic users.

 

[Titus]

*Update*: Actually that raises an interesting idea. There should be some benefit from a crit other than just costing no MPs. If it added to the Magnitude of a spell, it would give people a chance of overcoming defensive magic. How much though? POW? That's too much. MPs? That's unfair on Divine Magic users.

How about doubling the magnitude?

Would you apply the increase in magnitude to any spell which got a critical success when it was cast?
Why just "attack" spells?

You could carry this out further and allow a caster to choose to double magnitude or duration or range or whatever makes sense to the GM. You could randomize what effect you got, but if I was using a rule like this, I would let the caster choose since to me a critical success indicates excellent control of your spell casting.

Oh! Oh! If a critical increased the unit of measure from minutes to hours, then it would be a way for mages to get those long duration spells some us miss from RQ3. The mage just has to keep trying over and over until they get it just right.

Not really advocating anything here, just thinking out loud. ( :? Or whatever you call it when you are typing it.)

 

[PhilHibbs]

Would you apply the increase in magnitude to any spell which got a critical success when it was cast?
Why just "attack" spells?

I didn't mention "attack" spells at all.

You could carry this out further and allow a caster to choose to double magnitude or duration or range or whatever makes sense to the GM. You could randomize what effect you got, but if I was using a rule like this, I would let the caster choose since to me a critical success indicates excellent control of your spell casting.

Sure, just like the melee Combat Options list, you get to pick your bonus on a crit.

Oh! Oh! If a critical increased the unit of measure from minutes to hours, then it would be a way for mages to get those long duration spells some us miss from RQ3. The mage just has to keep trying over and over until they get it just right.

Indeed, "Duration in hours" could be an option. How about this:

• Free Cast - no MP cost
  Power Cast - Double Magnitude
  Far Cast - 100 x Range
  Long Cast - Duration in Hours
  Repeat Cast - cast same spell again in next action with no skill roll required

Far Cast isn't going to be much use, since you've already declared the target and presumably put enough range in to cover the requirement. You could, however, try for a lucky crit to cast a spell further than you normally can, at the risk of losing all the MPs if you don't crit.

 

[andyl]

Oh! Oh! If a critical increased the unit of measure from minutes to hours, then it would be a way for mages to get those long duration spells some us miss from RQ3. The mage just has to keep trying over and over until they get it just right.

Indeed, "Duration in hours" could be an option. How about this:

• Free Cast - no MP cost
  Power Cast - Double Magnitude
  Far Cast - 100 x Range
  Long Cast - Duration in Hours
  Repeat Cast - cast same spell again in next action with no skill roll required

Far Cast isn't going to be much use, since you've already declared the target and presumably put enough range in to cover the requirement. You could, however, try for a lucky crit to cast a spell further than you normally can, at the risk of losing all the MPs if you don't crit.

I'm not too happy with the Long Cast either.

I could go with your Free Cast and Repeat Cast.

The others seem too powerful.

I would change your idea to be -
On a critical you may opt to receive 1 point (could be 2 points - this is coming straight of the top of my head so no playtesting) of extra manipulation to apply to the spell (all components of the spell in the case of combined spells) in either Magnitude, Duration, or Distance.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I'm not too happy with the Long Cast either.

I could go with your Free Cast and Repeat Cast.

The others seem too powerful.

Free Cast is exactly what you get now for a critical. Far Cast and Long Cast could be reduced to x10 or even x2.

I'm just going by the Sandy Petersen school of game design. "Don't hand out little 10% bonuses - make them worthwhile. The basic power-up in Quake quadruples your damage."

 

[Titus]

Would you apply the increase in magnitude to any spell which got a critical success when it was cast?
Why just "attack" spells?

I didn't mention "attack" spells at all.

Yes, sorry, I just took it that way because you were talking about overcoming defensive spells.

I would change your idea to be -
On a critical you may opt to receive 1 point (could be 2 points - this is coming straight of the top of my head so no playtesting) of extra manipulation to apply to the spell (all components of the spell in the case of combined spells) in either Magnitude, Duration, or Distance.

But manipulation would only apply to sorcery. I know this thread is titled "Sorcery Range", but I was thinking that this could apply to all types of magic. With the possible exception of spirit magicians, users of the other types of magic have to make a skill check to succeed when they cast a spell. So I figured they could use the critical success options, too. Options could vary with the type of magic.

 

[PhilHibbs]

...On a critical you may opt to receive 1 point (could be 2 points - this is coming straight of the top of my head so no playtesting) of extra manipulation to apply to the spell ...

But manipulation would only apply to sorcery...

I agree, and I'm happy with the list I made as it's all generic and applicable to all forms of cast magic. My only reservation is that double Magnitude is a lot more valuable to Common or Divine users than it is for Sorcerors, and Sorcery gets no equivalent bonus to the spell's effect which comes from the caster's Grimoire skill rather than the Magnitude. For a sorceror, the magnitude bonus is only useful for overcoming defensive magic. For a Common/Divine Magic user, it doubles their Bladesharp, Healing, Countermagic, etc. potency. And it doesn't do much for Spirit Magic folks.

 

[Mugen]

Given the nature of MRQ ii Sorcery rules, I think you'd have to give additional options to sorcerers.

For instance :

-Double Grimoire Skills for determining spell effect;
-Double available Manipulation levels with an additional manipulation effect.

As for myself, I plan on using appropriate Combat Maneuvers with Attacks and Defense spells. For instance, a critical cast of Wrack or Skybolt could be directed to the head with maximised damage, or a good success on an evade roll to resist a spell could let you change range.

As a matter of fact, I also plan on introducing an "Intensity" parameter into Sorcery. It would replace "Grimoire/10" in spell descriptions.
The interesting part is that Intensity could be lowered to be gain additional Manipulation effects.
Therefore, I could simply double Intensity on a critical roll and let the player spread the additional levels between spell effet and manipulation levels.

 

[Deleriad]

Given the nature of MRQ ii Sorcery rules, I think you'd have to give additional options to sorcerers.

For instance :

-Double Grimoire Skills for determining spell effect;
-Double available Manipulation levels with an additional manipulation effect.

As for myself, I plan on using appropriate Combat Maneuvers with Attacks and Defense spells. For instance, a critical cast of Wrack or Skybolt could be directed to the head with maximised damage, or a good success on an evade roll to resist a spell could let you change range.

As a matter of fact, I also plan on introducing an "Intensity" parameter into Sorcery. It would replace "Grimoire/10" in spell descriptions.
The interesting part is that Intensity could be lowered to be gain additional Manipulation effects.
Therefore, I could simply double Intensity on a critical roll and let the player spread the additional levels between spell effet and manipulation levels.

I refer to what you call Intensity as Effect Level simply because it's a lot easier than talking about Grimoire/10 all the time. Whenever the authors come to revise RQ, I think that would be a good thing to add in.

I also decided in the end to allow for Combat Manoeuvres for magic that is resisted through Evade. As a side effect of this I'm going to be removing the choose location default of some spells such as Lightning Bolt.

I've been mulling over creating bespoke CMs for all types of magic. E.g. if something is resisted with Persistence then a bespoke CM might be "target loses 1D6 Magic Points" while Resilience might have a stun effect "target cannot attack for their next 1D3 CAs". Additionally you might include critical magic CMs. I think it would be fun and give extra meaning to criticals. It is a step more complicated however and probably makes sense in a world where magic duels are more common.

 

[Mugen]

As a side effect of this I'm going to be removing the choose location default of some spells such as Lightning Bolt.

I'd do the same for Disruption. 1D3 damage to X locations is not the same spell than XD3 damage to chest or head.

 

[PhilHibbs]

-Double available Manipulation levels with an additional manipulation effect.

I'd say not that, because you've already assigned Manipulation and have got as far as casting the spell, going back and adding more Manipulations in after the casting time is up seems a bit odd to me. Also this is a lot more powerful than doubling a single Manipulation, this could double all of them.

 

[alex_greene]

The point of game balance is not to nerf or cripple the player characters so as to give all the other characters equal standing.

Game balance is about how powerful the bad guys are versus your guys - are their numbers or strengths about equal, less than or overwhelmingly more than the bad guys? How challenging would the game be if the bad guys outclassed them in terms of percentages, but your guys just had to face them anyway? Stuff like that.

 

[alex_greene]

You have one small problem with Neutralise + Combine skill + whatever else you are trying to do.

Combine adds 1 MP per Manipulation factor used, and reduces Intensity by 1 per Manipulation factor used. Combining two spells together makes both weaker.

Instead of Neutralise Magic combined with another spell, you might as well pump Manipulation factors into Magnitude. Whether it is a Magnitude 4 spell with +1 Range or a Magnitude 3 spell with +2 Range, it is going to cost you 1 MP for the Magnitude and 1 MP for the Range.

Neutralise Magic is best cast as a standalone spell, in this regard. If you want to buff up any sorcery spell to push through someone's Magic Resistance, add Magnitude instead.

Oh, and buff up Manipulation to gain those extra factors. Remember that as with all skills in Legend, when you divide any percentage total by 10, you round up: so while a Manipulation of 50% grants you 5 Manipulation factors, Manipulation 51% grants you 6, and it stays at 6 all the way till you reach Manipulation 60%. Even a buff of 1% can bring a huge reward.