Sorcery, Manipulation and Magic Points
- Thread starter Grimolde
- Start date
However much Duration you put in, that's one manipulation, 1MP cost, and 1CA casting time. Range, also, no matter how much range is another 1MP and 1CA. Combine is different - two points of Combine manipulation to mix in two additional spells to the cast is 2MP, -20% casting chance, but (I think) only 1CA... not sure about that last point though.Caustic Marinade said:
Caustic Marinade
Mongoose
Wow! Sorcery is pretty good then =)
Thanks.
Thanks.
Ok.
Yes, Sorcery is powerful. And flexible. And if your GM is a pushover, it's definitely the way to go.
But, after starting with 4 spells, the next Grimoire should be tough to find. And you start that Grimoire at base chance. So learning new spells is tough and a constant uphill battle.
Compared to divine and spirit magic in which you only improve, I think that is a significant dampener. And an IR eater. It's great- and I would think almost any character would want to know some, if it were culturally appropriate- but it does have certain controls and drawbacks that can make it not-so-shiny.
Fly is especially dangerous when used early on, on your self if your concentration is challenged.
Of course, a successful combined offensive fly, and wrack (or smother) spell that suspends ALL of your enemies (multiple targets) in the air and kills them slowly while they are unable to really do anything, is, well, making the rules cry a little bit. They could always throw something at you, critical, and kill you though, so I guess it evens out.
Yes, Sorcery is powerful. And flexible. And if your GM is a pushover, it's definitely the way to go.
But, after starting with 4 spells, the next Grimoire should be tough to find. And you start that Grimoire at base chance. So learning new spells is tough and a constant uphill battle.
Compared to divine and spirit magic in which you only improve, I think that is a significant dampener. And an IR eater. It's great- and I would think almost any character would want to know some, if it were culturally appropriate- but it does have certain controls and drawbacks that can make it not-so-shiny.
Fly is especially dangerous when used early on, on your self if your concentration is challenged.
Of course, a successful combined offensive fly, and wrack (or smother) spell that suspends ALL of your enemies (multiple targets) in the air and kills them slowly while they are unable to really do anything, is, well, making the rules cry a little bit. They could always throw something at you, critical, and kill you though, so I guess it evens out.
I'm my game I've house ruled that you get a minus to your sorcery skill, equal to your armour penalty * 10.
So a sorcerer in full plate (AP penalty -9) would recieve -90% to his sorcery skill.
But I play in Eberron, so I am aiming for a more D&D style wizard (I've also introduced a MP-giving advanded skill, which the same restriction). But the armour penalty I find is absolutely a must, since I need to be able to at least frighten him in case he misses a cast roll or en enemy makes a resist roll. If he also wore a lot of armour, he wouldn't be scared when a crossbow bolt hit him.
- Dan
So a sorcerer in full plate (AP penalty -9) would recieve -90% to his sorcery skill.
But I play in Eberron, so I am aiming for a more D&D style wizard (I've also introduced a MP-giving advanded skill, which the same restriction). But the armour penalty I find is absolutely a must, since I need to be able to at least frighten him in case he misses a cast roll or en enemy makes a resist roll. If he also wore a lot of armour, he wouldn't be scared when a crossbow bolt hit him.
- Dan
Deleriad
Mongoose
One issue about skill modifiers to the Grimoire skill is that they don't affect the "effect" of the spell. E.g. say you have a skill of 73% which would normally give an effect of 8 'levels' of spell and you combine two spells together to give -10% to the skill then you *still get* 8 'levels of effect.'
That is to say that the effect you get out of a spell is equal to your actual skill with a grimoire not your casting chance at the moment of casting.
The reason for this is the "take more time" table. If you took 10 times as long to cast a spell as normal then it would add 60% to your cast chance but you really don't want that giving an extra 6 levels of effect.
That is to say that the effect you get out of a spell is equal to your actual skill with a grimoire not your casting chance at the moment of casting.
The reason for this is the "take more time" table. If you took 10 times as long to cast a spell as normal then it would add 60% to your cast chance but you really don't want that giving an extra 6 levels of effect.
An issue I have with Sorcery is the difficulty to get manipulation effect levels when using more than one Manipulation effect.
My first idea to solve my problem is to allow one to "trade" effect levels for Manipulation levels.
For instance, If I have a 76% Grimoire skill and I want to fly a SIZ 3 object at minimum level, I only need a skill level of 1 to 10%, which mean I can trade the remaining 70% for 7 manipulation effects.
Another idea was to allow one to spend 1 MP to get (Manipulation/10) levels.
For instance, if I cast a spell with Range, Magnitude and Duration with a skill of 80%, I can spend another MP (for a total of 5) to have 16 Manipulation levels instead of 8.
My first idea to solve my problem is to allow one to "trade" effect levels for Manipulation levels.
For instance, If I have a 76% Grimoire skill and I want to fly a SIZ 3 object at minimum level, I only need a skill level of 1 to 10%, which mean I can trade the remaining 70% for 7 manipulation effects.
Another idea was to allow one to spend 1 MP to get (Manipulation/10) levels.
For instance, if I cast a spell with Range, Magnitude and Duration with a skill of 80%, I can spend another MP (for a total of 5) to have 16 Manipulation levels instead of 8.
I'm thread-jumping from the shamanism discussion here! On that thread, I worked out how many spells a sorceror could keep up all day, but I got the rules wrong
If he has a POW of 16, say, he can do that 32 times in a day without overly diminishing his MPs. With a Manipulation skill of 65 he can make it last 3 hours, so yes, he can keep one spell up all day excluding sleeping time. If he casts all his spells independently, he can keep up 5 spells for 18 hours a day by using all his MPs. So, I guess it is possible, but that leaves nothing left for casting any other spells. Some spells can only be cast together with Combine, though, and that reduces the duration while keeping the same MP cost.
I now notice that this is incorrect in two ways. One is that his spells only last 2 hours (128 minutes) not 3 hours. The other was assuming that a maximum duration spell cost 1MP, as per the rule:
If you take it as just doubling the cost of each spell, then clearly he can keep up half as many spells. 5 would deplete his MPs by 7⅓ every 2 hours, so he can only do that twice. 2 Spells cost 4MPs, which leaves him ⅓MP short per two hours, which leaves him with 12MPs by the end of the day.
If instead you use Combine to cast the spells, you can get 3 spells for 4MPs. 1 for the basic cast, 1 for the Duration, and 2 for the two additional spells. However this reduces the duration to 96 minutes, and in that time he only recovers 2 MPs, so now he's losing 2MP per 2 hours, so by the end of a 12 hour day he's only got 10MPs left. Cranking that up to 5 spells all day with Combine means he's re-casting every hour (well, 64 minutes) and spending 6MP each time, recovering only 1⅓ MP, meaning he's out of MPs in under 4 hours again.
So, sorcery may be powerful, but keeping more than two spells up all day is simply not possible at normal human levels. One solution to this is to transcend normal human levels with Enhance INT and Enhance POW, so all your unmanipulated spells last twice as long and your skill goes up by somewhere between 23 and 36% giving you up to four additional Manipulations on top.
Here's my incorrect example from there:gran_orco said:
If he has a POW of 16, say, he can do that 32 times in a day without overly diminishing his MPs. With a Manipulation skill of 65 he can make it last 3 hours, so yes, he can keep one spell up all day excluding sleeping time. If he casts all his spells independently, he can keep up 5 spells for 18 hours a day by using all his MPs. So, I guess it is possible, but that leaves nothing left for casting any other spells. Some spells can only be cast together with Combine, though, and that reduces the duration while keeping the same MP cost.
I now notice that this is incorrect in two ways. One is that his spells only last 2 hours (128 minutes) not 3 hours. The other was assuming that a maximum duration spell cost 1MP, as per the rule:
This rule is incorrect, the correct rule is:p47 said:
p129 said:
If you take it as just doubling the cost of each spell, then clearly he can keep up half as many spells. 5 would deplete his MPs by 7⅓ every 2 hours, so he can only do that twice. 2 Spells cost 4MPs, which leaves him ⅓MP short per two hours, which leaves him with 12MPs by the end of the day.
If instead you use Combine to cast the spells, you can get 3 spells for 4MPs. 1 for the basic cast, 1 for the Duration, and 2 for the two additional spells. However this reduces the duration to 96 minutes, and in that time he only recovers 2 MPs, so now he's losing 2MP per 2 hours, so by the end of a 12 hour day he's only got 10MPs left. Cranking that up to 5 spells all day with Combine means he's re-casting every hour (well, 64 minutes) and spending 6MP each time, recovering only 1⅓ MP, meaning he's out of MPs in under 4 hours again.
So, sorcery may be powerful, but keeping more than two spells up all day is simply not possible at normal human levels. One solution to this is to transcend normal human levels with Enhance INT and Enhance POW, so all your unmanipulated spells last twice as long and your skill goes up by somewhere between 23 and 36% giving you up to four additional Manipulations on top.
:lol: I knew that you must spend 2 mp to fly if you want to apply duration. I said my example of "1 mp, again and again" because I was trying to explain that s shaman lose his "source of magic" and a sorcerer "has his spells with him all time", only limitated by his own MP.
I congratulate you for discovering a new rule, like cerebro
I congratulate you for discovering a new rule, like cerebro
OK lets see how good it can get with Enhance INT and Enhance POW.
Assuming a starting character here, with INT and POW both 16. That gives him Grimoire and Manipulation skills of 72, so I was slightly short-changing the previous example by giving him 65% in Manipulation.
First thing in the morning, he wakes and casts Enhance INT and Enhance POW on himself with maximum duration. It costs 3MP and lasts 2 hours if he uses Combine. That bumps his INT and POW up to 32 each. Then he casts his other spells. He's regenerating 8MPs every 3 hours now, and only needs 5 points of Duration to cast spells that last that long, so those 8MPs will buy 7 spells all on the same target (two of which have to be Enhance INT and Enhance POW), or more realistically, Flight plus Enhance INT and POW on self and three other party members cast every 3½hrs for 4 MPs, and Damage Enhancement on 5 weapons weapons cast every 4 hours for 3MPs.
So, without those two spells, sorcery is fairly good but can't keep spells up all day. Give your sorceror Enhance INT and Enhance POW, e.g. the Hrestoli Liturgies or Wizards of Zistor grimoires, and it suddenly becomes super-powerful.
*Edit*: I'm potentially wrong about his starting skills, he doesn't get +10 from his profession, but he could use the +10 bonus from pre-existing relationships with other characters. If his Grimoire is only 62 instead of 72 then his first Enhance INT and Enhance POW only give him +14 to each instead of +16, but his second cast of the day gets them up to +16 each.
Assuming a starting character here, with INT and POW both 16. That gives him Grimoire and Manipulation skills of 72, so I was slightly short-changing the previous example by giving him 65% in Manipulation.
First thing in the morning, he wakes and casts Enhance INT and Enhance POW on himself with maximum duration. It costs 3MP and lasts 2 hours if he uses Combine. That bumps his INT and POW up to 32 each. Then he casts his other spells. He's regenerating 8MPs every 3 hours now, and only needs 5 points of Duration to cast spells that last that long, so those 8MPs will buy 7 spells all on the same target (two of which have to be Enhance INT and Enhance POW), or more realistically, Flight plus Enhance INT and POW on self and three other party members cast every 3½hrs for 4 MPs, and Damage Enhancement on 5 weapons weapons cast every 4 hours for 3MPs.
So, without those two spells, sorcery is fairly good but can't keep spells up all day. Give your sorceror Enhance INT and Enhance POW, e.g. the Hrestoli Liturgies or Wizards of Zistor grimoires, and it suddenly becomes super-powerful.
*Edit*: I'm potentially wrong about his starting skills, he doesn't get +10 from his profession, but he could use the +10 bonus from pre-existing relationships with other characters. If his Grimoire is only 62 instead of 72 then his first Enhance INT and Enhance POW only give him +14 to each instead of +16, but his second cast of the day gets them up to +16 each.
Deleriad
Mongoose
Interesting thought experiment. Assume a sorcerer of POW 18, 100% in skills and with access to whatever spells he needs. He recovers MPs at the rate of 3 every two hours. (3 per hour if meditating)
Assume that he takes 10 times as long as normal to cast spells to give +60%.
Combining Enhance INT&POW adds 36% to his skills and gives him POW 36. It's open to debate but seeing as his POW is 36 he now recovers 3 Magic Points per hour and has 14 levels of Manipulation available. Costs him 3 MPs to cast which he gets back after an hour and lasts POW*10 = 360 minutes or 6 hours.
Just under six hours later he bootstraps himself recasting Enhance INT&POW with a new Duration of POW *14 (504 minutes, roughly 8 1/2 hours). He then meditates for 6 hours to ensure he gets to full 36 Magic Points and then recasts. He's now fully primed.
As his MP recovery rate is now 3 per hour he can effectively Combine 2 spells together every hour for a roughly 8.5 hour duration while never being at less than 33 Magic Points. One of those spells ought to be Abjure Sleep.
For total munchkinism, if you have a regular supply for a Tap spell then he could add an extra 14 MPs per tap spell. Combined Tap STR+SIZ on a cow should net an extra 28 MPs.
That is a pure thought experiment but you end with a sorcerer with up to 66 Magic Points to spend and 16 spells combined together that are simply recast on a rotating 8 hour schedule. Admittedly he better have Spell resistance up or else a Trollkin with Countermagic 1 would be the end of him...
On the other hand, it does show that if you give a sorcerer a day to plan his revenge and get up to full speed it won't be nice.
Assume that he takes 10 times as long as normal to cast spells to give +60%.
Combining Enhance INT&POW adds 36% to his skills and gives him POW 36. It's open to debate but seeing as his POW is 36 he now recovers 3 Magic Points per hour and has 14 levels of Manipulation available. Costs him 3 MPs to cast which he gets back after an hour and lasts POW*10 = 360 minutes or 6 hours.
Just under six hours later he bootstraps himself recasting Enhance INT&POW with a new Duration of POW *14 (504 minutes, roughly 8 1/2 hours). He then meditates for 6 hours to ensure he gets to full 36 Magic Points and then recasts. He's now fully primed.
As his MP recovery rate is now 3 per hour he can effectively Combine 2 spells together every hour for a roughly 8.5 hour duration while never being at less than 33 Magic Points. One of those spells ought to be Abjure Sleep.
For total munchkinism, if you have a regular supply for a Tap spell then he could add an extra 14 MPs per tap spell. Combined Tap STR+SIZ on a cow should net an extra 28 MPs.
That is a pure thought experiment but you end with a sorcerer with up to 66 Magic Points to spend and 16 spells combined together that are simply recast on a rotating 8 hour schedule. Admittedly he better have Spell resistance up or else a Trollkin with Countermagic 1 would be the end of him...
On the other hand, it does show that if you give a sorcerer a day to plan his revenge and get up to full speed it won't be nice.
Deleriad
Mongoose
Actually, on the pure gamist front. Taking 10 times as long to cast a spell nets +60%. For a starting sorcerer with INT 18, POW 18, that makes his cast chance 96%.
First act. Combined INT&DEX with duration POW*4. Cast chance 86%. Keep doing it until you succeed. Last 144 minutes.
Sorcery and Manipulation now both 72% and maximum cast chance is 132%. Unluckily for the sorcerer it doesn't help his levels of manipulation.
1 hour later. All 3 MPs recovered. Recast Enhance INT&POW now with Duration POW*8 (288 minutes) i.e. 4.5 hours with some wiggle time. MP recover at 3 per hour.
So even a beginning sorcerer with the right spells can cast 4*2 spells per day and never have fewer than 33 Magic Points.
First act. Combined INT&DEX with duration POW*4. Cast chance 86%. Keep doing it until you succeed. Last 144 minutes.
Sorcery and Manipulation now both 72% and maximum cast chance is 132%. Unluckily for the sorcerer it doesn't help his levels of manipulation.
1 hour later. All 3 MPs recovered. Recast Enhance INT&POW now with Duration POW*8 (288 minutes) i.e. 4.5 hours with some wiggle time. MP recover at 3 per hour.
So even a beginning sorcerer with the right spells can cast 4*2 spells per day and never have fewer than 33 Magic Points.
Similar threads
