Sorcery Magnitude question

[Deleriad]

Enchant. Any spell with the Enchant trait requires successful use of the Enchant skill as well as the normal spell skills. An Enchantment is also a Ritual and the amount of POW that needs to be spent will be found in the spell description.ed.

No, forcing two skill rolls is annoying. I prefer to use the Enchant skill. Since Enchantments take place over a relatively longer period of time - hours or days - its not quite the same as a sorcery skill. I try to avoid creeping incompetence when possible when considering game design.

Jeff

My first mistake. It burns, burns being on the other side

It's actually meant to read that you must roll under Enchant as well the spell skill (as if Enchant were a manipulation). I agree that making two different rolls would be a BAD idea. Ditto Summoning.

Overcharging. As I recall in the player's update it was suggested that Magic Defence and Overcharging were meant to be taken out and replaced with opposed rolls because otherwise it gets really hard to make sense of.

 

[Rurik]

Overcharging. As I recall in the player's update it was suggested that Magic Defence and Overcharging were meant to be taken out and replaced with opposed rolls because otherwise it gets really hard to make sense of.

No, it has never been officially dropped from the rules in any update I am aware of. If it were that would be one thing but it hasn't.

Overcharging is the only way to power through certain magical defenses.

The switch to opposed rolls for casting is not that well thought out in my opinion - there were threads on it long before the latest players update made it officail and I was originally a proponent of using them, but quickly saw it didn't mesh well with other rules after some playtesting.

Overcharging has never been officially addressed nor has the use of spellcharged magical items (casting is automatic, so do they get a 100% for the opposed roll - that is very powerful considering the odds behind opposed rolls).

My first mistake. It burns, burns being on the other side

Well at least you are not overcharging me for your mistakes.

(I'm sorry, I'll stop now...)

 

[Deleriad]

Overcharging is the only way to power through certain magical defenses.

The switch to opposed rolls for casting is not that well thought out in my opinion - there were threads on it long before the latest players update made it officail and I was originally a proponent of using them, but quickly saw it didn't mesh well with other rules after some playtesting.

Overcharging has never been officially addressed nor has the use of spellcharged magical items (casting is automatic, so do they get a 100% for the opposed roll - that is very powerful considering the odds behind opposed rolls).

Studiously ignoring the pun...

You're right that you don't absolutely need to remove overcharging from sorcery and that the switch to opposed rolls for spell casting has caused problems which haven't been addressed. If I recall the conversation afterwards, the authors of the update said that various intended changes didn't make it into the update and some random passage about "lower magnitude" effects turned up, despite the fact that it doesn't actually mean anything.

Overcharging in sorcery RAW does not increase the magnitude of the spell - all it does is change the target's resist rating - so I am not sure what magical defences you are referring to. In fact, if you overcharge a sorcery spell by 2MP you will reduce the final Magnitude by 1...

For these reasons it seems simplest to just remove overcharging from sorcery and play with Opposed Rolls for casting as per the "official" update.

 

[Rurik]

Countermagic Sheild, Spell Reflection, and Spell Resistance for example all require you to overcome the magnitude of the anti-magic spell. Often the only way to do this is overcharging.

Perhaps this is not as big a deal with sorcery than with say rune magic as sorcery is often of decent magnitude, but still if your maximum magnitude is 5 you cannot ever blow past a Spell Reflection 3, while a Runecaster could overcharge his disrupt if he wanted to.

Another problem case is the Shield spell. That gives +10% to resist per magnitude, so Shield 4 gives +40%, which all other things being equal is a huge advantage. Without overcharging there is no way to counter this bonus.

I think removing overcharging alltogether just opens up a new set of issues to be figgled with.

 

[Deleriad]

Just to continue contributing, these are the major changes I would make to the problematic spells from the RQ Companion. Again the idea is to minimise changes wherever possible and to work within the existing MRQ framerok. I've only flagged the key elements here - the rest are on the wiki.

Dominate (Species
In addition to the normal cost of the spell, the sorcerer must charge the spell with an additional number of Magic Points that are least equal to the target’s Magic Points or else the spell is automatically resisted.
&
Any time a dominated creature is ordered to perform an activity which would cause it severe harm or expose it to severe danger it may make an opposed roll of its Persistence versus the Spell’s Magnitude*10. If the attempt succeeds the spell is broken. If the dominated creature fumbles the attempt, the stress kills it instantly.

Fly
Each point of Magnitude can levitate up to 15 ENC of a single object, 3 SIZ of a single living being or can increase the movement speed of the target by 1m. For the purposes of the spell, treat 5 ENC as equivalent to 1 SIZ. As a guideline assume that 1 SIZ equals roughly 5kg. Example: to fly someone with a SIZ of 13 who is carrying 12 ENC would require enough magnitude to fly the equivalent of 16 SIZ, which is to say 6 Magnitude.

Shapechange
(Not a lot of people realise just how impossible this spell is..)
The spell needs 1 Magnitude for each 3 points of SIZ (or portion thereof) of the target. At the time of casting the caster may charge the spell with any number of Magic Points. Each MP charged this way allows the caster to add or subtract one point from the target’s STR and SIZ in its new form (to a minimum of 1). I The target’s other Characteristics cannot be changed in this way...

Example: to change a SIZ 13 man (STR 11, CON 12, DEX 15, INT 13, POW 10, CHA 9) into a SIZ 1 mouse the spell needs to be cast at magnitude 5 and the caster would need to spend an additional 12 Magic Points which would leave the target as a STR 1, CON 12, DEX 15, SIZ 1, INT 13, POW 10, CHA 9 mouse. If on the other hand, the sorcerer wished to change the target to a SIZ 22 bear, then it would cost an additional 9 Magic Points and the target would end up as STR 20, SIZ 22 bear.

Smother
Each point of Magnitude will cover three points of SIZ – thus a Magnitude 4 Smother would be enough to cover a SIZ 12 target. When the spell begins, if the target fails to resist but scores a Partial Success (i.e. they made their Persistence test but lost the opposed roll) then it is able to gasp in one last breath before Smother cuts off the ambient oxygen supply otherwise it will start drowning in the next Combat Round.

Tap (Characteristic)
Instant

Tap will only work if its Magnitude is greater than the target’s specified Characteristic. For each point of Magnitude in excess of the Characteristic, the target loses 1 point of the Characteristic permanently. Thus a Magnitude 6 Tap Strength spell cast against a target with a STR of 4 would tap 2 points of STR from the target. Tap spells have no effect when used against Fixed characteristics such as INT and CHA for animals. ...
If the sorcerer gains more Magic Points through Tap than his normal maximum, they will disappear at a rate of 1 per minute after the spell is cast.

 

[Deleriad]

Countermagic Sheild, Spell Reflection, and Spell Resistance for example all require you to overcome the magnitude of the anti-magic spell. Often the only way to do this is overcharging.

That's the thing, in MRQ sorcery overcharging does NOT increase the magnitude of the spell. If you read the companion, p25 -
"Overcharging Sorcery Spells
...
If the spell is successfully cast, every additional Magic
Point expended in casting a spell has the following
effect:
If the spell possesses the Resist trait, the target’s Resist
test suffers a –10% penalty."

That's ALL that Overcharging does.

 

[Voriof]

J
Tap (Characteristic)
Instant

Tap will only work if its Magnitude is greater than the target’s specified Characteristic. For each point of Magnitude in excess of the Characteristic, the target loses 1 point of the Characteristic permanently. Thus a Magnitude 6 Tap Strength spell cast against a target with a STR of 4 would tap 2 points of STR from the target. Tap spells have no effect when used against Fixed characteristics such as INT and CHA for animals. ...
If the sorcerer gains more Magic Points through Tap than his normal maximum, they will disappear at a rate of 1 per minute after the spell is cast.

I pefer the RQ3 solution of magnitudes dependent on how easy the characteristic is to convert to magical energy. Size is an... ineffecient target but Tapping POW is highly useful if you want a quick recharge from some passing peasant or bunny. This makes Tap SIZ is a terror weapon, not an energizer.

Again, I tend to work from a Gloranthan perspective so your mileage may vary.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Doh, missed that. I was thinking it was the same for all magic types. Doesn't increase the effective Magnitude for Divine either. My bad.

Still, it is useful to counter effects like Shield that give a bonus to the resist roll.

 

[Deleriad]

I pefer the RQ3 solution of magnitudes dependent on how easy the characteristic is to convert to magical energy. Size is an... ineffecient target but Tapping POW is highly useful if you want a quick recharge from some passing peasant or bunny. This makes Tap SIZ is a terror weapon, not an energizer.
Jeff

I must admit, that if I were starting from scratch, I would do Tap the RQ3 way as well, has a better flavour somehow. I can't help thinking that the standard mad MRQ sorcerer lives in a tower surrounded by lots of miniature wildlife. If I were a player character and I saw a flock of SIZ 1 sheep, I would run for the hills...

 

[Voriof]

I must admit, that if I were starting from scratch, I would do Tap the RQ3 way as well, has a better flavour somehow. I can't help thinking that the standard mad MRQ sorcerer lives in a tower surrounded by lots of miniature wildlife. If I were a player character and I saw a flock of SIZ 1 sheep, I would run for the hills...

True. It does give a few good "Girl Genius" moments.

FEAR MY MINIMOTHS!

rrrrrarrrrg!!!

(Squish) Oops.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

I must admit, that if I were starting from scratch, I would do Tap the RQ3 way as well, has a better flavour somehow. I can't help thinking that the standard mad MRQ sorcerer lives in a tower surrounded by lots of miniature wildlife. If I were a player character and I saw a flock of SIZ 1 sheep, I would run for the hills...

Siz 1 Sheep indicate no great skill, it is the 1 inch tall dinosaurs that would worry me...

EDIT: Doh, Jeff beat me to it...

FEAR MY MINIMOTHS!

Still, there is a certain sinister aspect to MRQ tapping that is appealing (or revolting). "Young Master Illadeaus has progressed rapidly in his studies past the barn cats, he is ready for more advanced subjects - we will require some peasant children..."

 

[Homunculus]

Use common sense - the rules of the system have some peculiarities - don't get caught up in them and let them take over. GM's control your games - players don't abuse the rules - it detracts from the fun for you and for other players.

Thoughts???

The big problem, for my group and I anyways, is that the rule system itself is creating a conflict and taking away from the enjoyment of the game. It does get very tiresome when you have to spend two hours arguing with the sorcerer player about the use of his spells rather then allow the group to play. It might just be the player in my group, but he does love to meta-game and abuse the rule system.

That's why I tried to create this thread and get ideas about the sorcery system, to see what the ideas of others are and how to overcome this overpower problem in the game.

 

[Deleriad]

That's why I tried to create this thread and get ideas about the sorcery system, to see what the ideas of others are and how to overcome this overpower problem in the game.

I actually don't think that sorcery is overpowered in general. I think there is a specific problem with one element (0MP cost for spells) that can lead to some abuse and there are problems with the texts of certain spells in the Companion. If your players are used to RQ3, MRQ will look like money for nothing. In that case the thing to do is not to let your sorcerer get MP extensions for free. Don't leave piles of MP crystals around the place and don't let him get POW gains without working for it. What he should soon realise is that spells may be cheaper in MP cost but he has a lot smaller MP pool. Of course if you're converting an RQ3 character you have a problem but conversions are never straightforward.

MRQ sorcery appears to be based on the philosophy that skill matters: a sorcerer with 100% manipulation gets more for his MP than one with 30%.

 

[RosenMcStern]

[MRQ sorcery appears to be based on the philosophy that skill matters: a sorcerer with 100% manipulation gets more for his MP than one with 30%.

Exactly. Deleriad found the perfect words to describe it.

 

[Sadric 86th]

I've followed this thread, I've read through it, I went back and re-read the rules and I'm left with some questions. How does a sorcerer determine the Magnitude of a spell? If a sorcerer just simply decides ( i.e. regardless of the Magnitude, it only costs 1 MP) why would a sorcerer have a Magnitude of less than 20? Ever?

I understand that increasing the MP cost reduces the effectiveness of a sorcerer but I suppose it's all about the tenor of the game. If you want magical spells every encounter ala D&D, I think you leave the rules alone- let the sorcerers blast away with their 0 MP spells. Otherwise, a cost of 1 MP per point of Magnitude beyond the first point makes magic rarer and potent- grand displays of power- and only the truly mighty can cast potent spells in a short time. A middle ground might be to increase the cost of MP per point of Magnitude over 1 but increase the regeneration rate of MPs to 1 or 2 per hour (or maybe even more?).

Another option is to have the skill affect the cost in MP. A critical success reduces the cost, regardless of the Magnitude to 1. A success and you pay a MP for each point of Magnitude over 1. A failure and the spell fails and you still spend the magic point. A fumble and it's all bad... Perhaps adding this option with increase in the MP recovery time works better. Another dynamic might be to test the sorcerer's resilience vs. the Magnitude of the spell x5% in an opposed roll. If the sorcerer wins, the sorcerer pays only 1 MP. If the spell wins, he pays the cost in MP and if he doesn't have enough, maybe he takes that in HP of damage spread evenly over all hit location areas...a rather nasty effect as the sorcery essentially drains his very life away and some instances, it could actually kill him.

 

[Rurik]

The magnitude is limited by the sorcerers skill Manipulation (Magnitude) as per the Sorcery Manipulation table.

So a manipulation skill of 41-50 means you may only cast spells at magnitude 5 (or lower, but as pointed out, you typically won't choose lower).

Here is a fairly complex example, a Sorcerer has Damage Boosting at 50%, Manipulation(Magnitude) at 65%, and Manipulation Duration at 35%.

If he rolls above a 45, his spell has succeeded (rolled under his spell skill) and would be at Magnitude 7 (+7 to damage) because his Magnitude skill is 65 - the duration however would just be at the base POW minutes because he failed his Manipulation (Duration) skill with the roll.

If he rolls under a 35, the Duration would be increased to POWx4 Minutes. If he rolls above a 50 the spell fails because he failed his spell casting roll - even if he makes his manipulation there is nothing to manipulate if the spell check fails.

I hope that helps.

 

[gran_orco]

The magnitude is limited by the sorcerers skill Manipulation (Magnitude) as per the Sorcery Manipulation table.

So a manipulation skill of 41-50 means you may only cast spells at magnitude 5 (or lower, but as pointed out, you typically won't choose lower).

Less magnitude for stealth purposes. But I have a dude: Spellbook has a legendary ability that says a sorcerer could do a spell with less potency than his magnitude, so I suppose that he can not "choose" the magnitude if he do not has this ability. He simply casts it with magnitude 6 with a 65% skill, or 4 with 43%, for exemple.

 

[Deleriad]

The RQ Companion is not clear on whether or not you can choose your Magnitude for an individual spell. The Master Sorcerer legendary ability implies that you can't however the sorcery spells in RQ Spellbook are so badly designed that I'm not convinced it's trustworthy.

The relevant quote from the Companion is: "As long as this also results in a success, the spell’s Magnitude is increased. The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased to is noted in the Manipulating Sorcery Spells table."

My inclination is to say that because the Companion says "maximum Magnitude" that you can choose your final Magnitude up to the maximum but the rules could be interpreted differently. I would ask Mongoose but I doubt they know answer.

 

[Rurik]

The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased to is noted in the Manipulating Sorcery Spells table.

I have always taken that to mean that the sorcerer can choose his magnitude. Saying you MUST cast at the maximum possible would also imply that if you had Magnitude (Targets) 35% you MUST cast at 4 targets at once if you apply that skill. There would be no way to target only 2 or 3 targets.

(I cast my 4d6 Firebolt at the three Trolls and, err, Bob. Sorry Bob - I have to pick another target - I really am pulling for you to live though.)

 

[RosenMcStern]

Well, even though you HAD TO cast the spell at its maximum magnitude, this would not mean that it could not cause the same effect of a lesser magnitude one if the caster wished to. A Heal 4 spell can still heal a 2-point wound, IMO, and note that you cannot cast Heal 2 if you know Heal 4 - this is specifically stated in the Rune Magic chapter. The point is that Heal 4 costs more than Heal 2, while Treat Wounds 4 costs the same as Treat Wounds 2.