Some TWF questions / usage ideas

[Clovenhoof]

I'll go right in medias res: if a character with TWC uses his off-hand attack first and for some reason has his off-hand free after this, can he use his main-hand weapon two-handed?

Possible uses:
1.) Character has Broadsword in main hand and nothing in the off hand. He uses his off-hand attack for the Fling Aside Maneuver, then grabs the sword in both hands to gain the x1,5 Str modifier for his main attacks.

2.) Character has Broadsword in main hand and Axe in the off hand. He uses his off-hand attack to _throw_ the Axe at one opponent, then proceeds to use his Broadsword two-handed for his main attacks.

3.) Character has Broadsword in main hand and, say, Poniard in off hand. He uses his off-hand attack first with the To The Hilt Maneuver and leaves his weapon stuck in the foe. Rest as above.

4.) Now imagine a high-level character with ITWF, Quick Draw, some Axes on his belt and a Greatsword on his back.
He could first use all his Off-hand attacks to throw 4 Axes (as specified by the Quick Draw feat, then quickdraw the Greatsword and use his four main attacks two-handed.

The last example might seem the most extreme, but imho there's nothing in the rules to prevent it, and for that reason, it also supports the legality of examples 1.-3.
What do you think?

 

[Krushnak]

1,2 and 3 i would say yes to and have no problem with a character behaving in such a manner. number 4 however i wouldnt allow.

 

[treeplanter]

Same here

personnaly I specified Quickdraw is limited to once per round (I don't wanna see I-draw-my-sword-ready-my-shield-drop-my-shield-drop-my-sword-draw-my-greatsword crap)

we never used quick draw with thrown weapon so dunno about this tough

 

[Dark Mistress]

Have to agree 1,2,3 are all ok, 4 not so much.

 

[Diabolus]

I say "No", if only because that's not two weapon fighting. That's use of a "free" offhand attack followed by a normal melee attack with a two-handed weapon. I think the idea with two-weapon fighting is you're skilled at making weapon attacks with each hand, not that you have a special ability to make a free attack with one hand before you cleave with your weapon in two hands.

There's nothing in your argument that wouldn't allow you to have a bardiche in your main hand, throw a spear and then use it with two hands. After all, a two-handed weapon doesn't need to be held with two hands at all times...

EDIT: I think the additional attacks granted by BAB increase would allow this flexibility, but two weapon fighting is more a style of fighting with a weapon in each hand IMHO, not just a way to shoehorn in additional attacks (with a single weapon in two hands).

 

[Clovenhoof]

First off, I'll say that I agree with the faction that wouldn't mind 1-3 but get a headache with 4.

However, the only good reason I can come up with is that 1-3 can be imagined as a fluid, cinematic fighting style, while 4 is rather on the cheesy end. (all the more if you take the extreme with bardiche + spears)

There's nothing in the rules against using TWF attacks for thrown weapons. The rule texts only read "attacks", not "melee attacks". I'll get back to that below.

we never used quick draw with thrown weapon so dunno about this tough

In fact that's the single most important use for Quick Draw, at least in my experience. The feat description specifically says that it allows you to use your full number of attacks with throwing weapons (provided you have enough weapons). In fact you could get up to eight throws per Full Attack action if you have ITWF and QD.

The official WOTC ruling is, quote:

Ranged Fighting with Two Weapons

Attacks with two thrown weapons work just as noted for melee weapons, except that you use your Dexterity modifier to resolve ranged attacks. You still use your Strength modifier for damage rolls (but only half your Strength bonus for damage rolls with your off-hand weapon).

source: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a

Accordingly, there's nothing to prevent you from throwing a bunch of daggers or axes with your off hand and attacking in melee with your main hand.

Hence, it is also not legit to limit QD to once per round; it goes directly against the written rule. However, I guess it would be a fair addon to rule that you can use QD only once per round with a two-handed weapon.

Again, this also means that the above example 4 is strictly speaking legal, however cheesy and undesirable.

 

[Apple]

No. They're using the off hand for two attacks. If the player wants to take a -5 penalty for it being their second attack, allow it, otherwise it's pretty clearly against the rules.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah I guess I would allow a character with Quick draw to throw his 2 or 3 dagger a round, no problem here, but anwyay I would not allow a character to walk with like 20+ dagger on him so

I think Quick draw is pretty usefull for ranged character. When you get closed by an opponent you don't want to lose your full round to draw your weapon. Also some fight will start with PC not aware, so the free action is nice too (tough I agree the fact you can draw while moving make it a bit more useless).

It is also pretty good to have with reflexive parry.

Diablodus: Yeah, exept you're doing 1d10+6 damage instead of 1d10+1d8+6, so i think there's not much problem here. In fact it just a slight bonus that fit with the genre for one-handed fighter

 

[Clovenhoof]

On a related note, a question concerning the Fling Aside maneuver:
by the description it requires a melee touch attack. The description of the Attack action rules that melee touch attacks can only be dodged, not parried. However, it mainly refers to spells.

I'm not sure if the fling aside maneuver should actually require a touch attack instead of a regular attack. I am not convinced that grabbing a sword blade with his bare hands will do the attacker any good.
What do you think?

 

[Apple]

I'm not sure if the fling aside maneuver should actually require a touch attack instead of a regular attack. I am not convinced that grabbing a sword blade with his bare hands will do the attacker any good.
What do you think?

Slapping someone's wrist guard with your sword isn't going to stop them from grabbing you.

 

[DooMJake]

I would say it is not only legal, but intended.

There is no part in any of the rules involved that say against such moves.
I would even argue that you dont even need to quickdraw the greatsword. You can hold it in one hand (you need 2 to attack though) so you could use the off hand to throw 4 weapons, then grap the greatseord with 2 hands and attack normally.

Or you could rule that "changing grip from 1h to 2h" costs an offhandattack. So the char throws only 3 weapons then attacks in melee.

On another note: Does throwing provoke an AoO? If so, this will hurt the char.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I would even argue that you dont even need to quickdraw the greatsword. You can hold it in one hand (you need 2 to attack though) so you could use the off hand to throw 4 weapons, then grap the greatseord with 2 hands and attack normally.

You need Quickdraw anyway if you want to make more than one Thrown attack, so the question whether you need Quickdraw for the Greatsword is moot. Otherwise drawing a new weapon for throwing would require a Move Action.

Or you could rule that "changing grip from 1h to 2h" costs an offhandattack.

Which would make it useless for anyone without ITWF.

On another note: Does throwing provoke an AoO? If so, this will hurt the char.

Throwing is a Ranged Attack, so yes, each throw draws an AoO from any opponent that threatens.

The clever thing to do would be to start out 5ft away (i.e. "one square") and throw your stuff, then take a 5ft step to approach and hammer away in melee.

But as I said, I wouldn't want to see #4 in my game, though 1-3 are fine.