Some strange things about armoured halftracks...

[Laffe]

Hi guys.

I've yet to play a game (for lack of time and opponents right now), but have been reading the book, compiling army lists and crunching some numbers. So bear with me, I might be missing something obvious, but I found some really strange things last night:

It's actually easier for an infantry squad to knock out an armoured halftrack than a truck!

Ok, I will do an example. Take one US squad with Garands and a Bar, firing at a german SdKfz 251. I will ignore stuff like terrain, splitting into fire teams etc., just line up the men and blaze away here. The Garands rolls 1xD6 each, the Bar 3xD6, so ten guys get 12xD6.

1. From the front the rifles can't hurt the Hanomag since it's target number is 7+ all ok in my book.

1. From the side the Hanomag has a target number of 6+, which statistically means that two out of the 12xD6 will hit. Hanomag has a save of 6+, and unless it can roll one of the saves it is toast, because it only has two hits!!!

Now this could be ok, I'm no expert and the armour on the SdKfz251 might have been virtually paper thin, although the book says the Hanomag was designed to protect the squad from small arms fire. However, and here's the strange thing. IF the germans had been in an Opel Blitz, they would have been safe, statistically speaking, because the Opel has three hits! It has the same target and save as the Hanomag from the side, but one more hit!!! It has a lower kill score, but it's still 7+ so out of the range of the rifles. Ok, it's vulnerable from the front, but statistically speaking, it will still survive with one hit left.

Now it gets even stranger: Should the germans run into a Sherman, they are pretty much toast in the Hanomag (as they should be). But in an opel Blitz they are safe, because a regular Sherman does not have the multihit trait for its gun, so it can do a maximum of two hits with the 75mm... :shock:

Please tell me I'm wrong. :?

 

[Laffe]

Oh, and it's the same the other way around; the US truck has one more hit than the halftrack, although the PzIV has the multihit trait on it's gun...

 

[hithero]

Yup, we found this out in our last game, the halftrack does not have much of a saving throw either but luckily the German player made that save. Armoured vehicles should have a minimum of Target 7 or say that straight D6 guns have no effect. A truck has a T6 S6, an armoured vehicle should really be immune to small arms fire.

You also have the added problem that if you are carrying an infantry squad, they would all be killed to in the explosion!

An argumant might be that you could disable a half-track by shooting its tyre's, but couldn't you do that from the front (but unable to in the rules) and definately NOT from the rear (which you can do in the rules).

Although this is a fantastic games system, I am finding that I'm having to add house rules all over ther place, which I alway's try to avoid when playing games. In this case I think that small arms should only be able to disable a vehicle (puncture tyre, kill driver etc) which stops it moving but leaves its occupants and weapons intact.

 

[Laffe]

Yes, IMO halftracks and armoured cars and similar should have at least T7 from the sides too. You shouldn't be able to take it out with a rifle, a MG maybe becaus there is (and was then) AP ammo for the MG's.

A house rule could be that a vehicle with only one hit left have to dice to avoid being immobilized, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Sgt. Scream]

To quote MGP's old Evo Rules on transport vehicles and destroying them:


If the XX is destroyed, every model on board will immediately suffer a D6-1 Damage Dice.

Don't know why they forgot those in the new stats and 'transport' trait.

 

[hithero]

Yes, as the rules stand you would be better of deploying a squad in the open than inside a half-track attacked from the flank by a normal infantry squad.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Halftracks are indeed armoured though not all that well.

Machine gun fire at close range could endanger them, and it would be rare for a halftrack t engage in close quarters infantry combat, like a typical gaming table portrays.


Now, a truck should be easier to destroy, but frankly, other than ambushes, why on earth is a truck "fighting" within a few hundred yards of the enemy ?

 

[Agis]

Halftracks are indeed armoured though not all that well.
Machine gun fire at close range could endanger them, and it would be rare for a halftrack t engage in close quarters infantry combat, like a typical gaming table portrays.
Now, a truck should be easier to destroy, but frankly, other than ambushes, why on earth is a truck "fighting" within a few hundred yards of the enemy ?

This was exactly the idea behind the design. HT were no rolling pillboxes! :wink:

If you want your HT tougher and your Softskins "softer" try the following houserules (the rule was actually used during some playtests):
1 - Any unit shooting at a vehicle must re-roll all successful D6 attacks (any Damage Dice that roll equal or above an enemy’s Target score). Attacks with a D10 or a D6+1 and higher are not effected.
2 - If a model with 2 or more Hits is reduced to just 1, it will become Crippled, and may only take one action every turn, and may never make a Reaction.

 

[hithero]

Something is wrong with the rules when we have to keep houseruling to make things right. In this case, rifles should not be able to take out an armoured half-track and allowing them to do so after playtesting is just mind-boggling.

 

[Agis]

Something is wrong with the rules when we have to keep houseruling to make things right. In this case, rifles should not be able to take out an armoured half-track and allowing them to do so after playtesting is just mind-boggling.

Oh, oh. I feared this reply...
:wink:
IMO the houserule is not necessary, take it as a suggestion if you want tougher HTs!.

The game is (IMO) "right".
Yes HTs could withstand some small army fire. But HTs were very valuable to every WW2 commander, none would risk them as a moving pill box. It was a deliberate design decision to encourage players to not endanger HTs to flank attacks.

 

[Laffe]

Agis, I can understand your reasoning concerning halftracks. I'm not too fond of the battle taxis in other games... But if the halftracks aint broken, then the trucks are too tough!

I like your crippled rule though, because it would give a meaning to the move score of vehicles (since they can't do a ready action to use the special movement mode).

 

[Mr Evil]

all bizzar

end of the day the gun is a mechanism (delivery system) to allow the weapon (ie the bullet) to reach its target, an armoured peircing round is designd to make a small hole and go through a target, while a hollow point is designed to take a target down as fast as possable.

a rifle shot through vision slit takng out the driver is going to be more effective than a armoured peircing shell making a small hole in the side probably missing anything of any use.

maybe there should be a rule for D6 based weapons stating that they dont cause a vehicle to blow up when destroyed ? but instead just become hard cover.

 

[DM]

a rifle shot through vision slit takng out the driver is going to be more effective than a armoured peircing shell making a small hole in the side probably missing anything of any use.

Its also extremely unlikely to happen. And of course an AP-firing machine gun is going to cause LOTS of holes all over the target

 

[WJ Rich]

Hi all
I think the point here is that the truck gives you a better chance of survival than the HT - I agree you shouldn't use the HT as a mobile pill box but Panzer Grens being at more risk in them than a truck seems a bit off even if you are supposed to tactically debus and leave them behind as covering fire if anything. No one wants to see a 40K/FOW run up immune, debus and assualt but neither do I want my PGs to be better off in trucks if they need to break through with transport.

Better to downgrade the trucks though!

 

[hithero]

But the rules do allow you to charge into the enemy and debus as the front Target is 7 - so that argument is rather moot. Trucks can also be shot up at a distance, so they are not better than half-tracks providing you keep your fron to the enemy, half-tracks are invulnerable to small arms fire.

 

[Laffe]

all bizzar

end of the day the gun is a mechanism (delivery system) to allow the weapon (ie the bullet) to reach its target, an armoured peircing round is designd to make a small hole and go through a target, while a hollow point is designed to take a target down as fast as possable.

a rifle shot through vision slit takng out the driver is going to be more effective than a armoured peircing shell making a small hole in the side probably missing anything of any use.

Not really a valid argument concerning the truck's ability to soak up more
hits than the H/T though... oh, yeah forgot it doesn't have vision slits, it just has windows, so I guess the driver can't be hit then